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Backcountry fees

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Offline Mark D

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Backcountry fees
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2007, 07:28:46 PM »
Thanks for settling that. I like the "extreme examples" on the Park website.

If the money is going to backcountry uses, how about springing for some picnic tables at the drive-in sites? Folks like me who fly in to the area, can't bring along lawn chairs and folding tables. Just a suggestion.

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Offline randell

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Backcountry fees
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2007, 10:39:26 PM »
You just need a big bag.  I have flown to Midland and driven down in a rental with a chair and folding table.  The extra work gets you ready for hot hikes.  :wink:
There's nothing like a good quest to get you intimate with a place. - Tom Clynes

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Offline presidio

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Backcountry fees
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2007, 12:01:27 AM »
Quote from: "01ACRViper"
no one back there could answer whether that would have cost me $60, or $10 :shock:


It's clear this fee thing has no guidance and perhaps no limits.
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<  presidio  >
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline presidio

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Backcountry fees
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2007, 12:03:33 AM »
Quote from: "RichardM"
It's possible they may leave that to the discretion of the person doing the permits.  If you bug them too much, you get charged extra.  :)


I hope they try that. I don't think they have a clue about what they are doing.
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<  presidio  >
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline presidio

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Backcountry fees
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2007, 12:04:28 AM »
Quote from: "bdann"
Quote from: "01ACRViper"
no one back there could answer whether that would have cost me $60, or $10 :shock:


that sucks.  i would think they'd have it figured out by now.


The only thing they have figured out is that they are going to nickel and dime you to death.
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<  presidio  >
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline presidio

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Backcountry fees
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2007, 12:07:00 AM »
Quote from: "Mark D"
If the money is going to backcountry uses, how about springing for some picnic tables at the drive-in sites? Folks like me who fly in to the area, can't bring along lawn chairs and folding tables. Just a suggestion.


Let's not go there. The fees will only increase the more they think they are 'doing' for you.
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<  presidio  >
_____________
Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline RichardM

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Backcountry fees
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2007, 10:04:07 AM »
Presidio, you sure do like to gripe, don't you?  Was Eric's response not clear enough for you or were you too busy thinking up negative things to say to read it?  You're not improving your image much today.  Just a friendly suggestion: you might consider checking out what the button can do for you.

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Offline Casa Grande

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Re: Some clarification
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2007, 11:18:02 AM »
Quote from: "BIBE Webmaster"
a permit is considered to be overnight backcountry use of one designated campsite or zone per night up to fourteen (14) consecutive nights. In Viper's case, as long as the use (zone & otherwise) was consecutive, it's just the $10 fee.


thanks for the clarification, Eric....it's made very clear to me.

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Offline presidio

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Backcountry fees
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2007, 05:08:34 PM »
Quote from: "RichardM"
Presidio, you sure do like to gripe, don't you?  Was Eric's response not clear enough for you or were you too busy thinking up negative things to say to read it?  You're not improving your image much today.  Just a friendly suggestion: you might consider checking out what the button can do for you.


Well, I respond to the messages as I read them in chronological order. After reading Eric's message, my next response was merely in reply to MarkD to not wish for things that will let them charge you more.

It's no secret that I am opposed to what the NPS is doing with fee increases. It is no secret that I am in the minority on this board and that most people here apparently are perfectly happy, and even overjoyed, to pay whatever the NPS deems necessary, even when they raise the fees without public involvement because they 'want to be consistent' with other parks. How would you like your income taxes to be raised so they are consistent with other countries like Belgium that have a tax rate of 66%. How would you like Texas to institute a state income tax because every state around has one? That would make as much sense as the NPS rationale and you wouldn't like it.

The NPS--
a) has not justified the need for increases other than their own desires.
b) has not, to date, offered any official guidance on how it will work. I appreciate that Eric has explained it, but why cannot the park officially do this? When 01ACRViper got a recent permit and commented that 'no one back there could answer whether that would have cost me $60, or $10', doesn't that raise any concerns among any of you? Eric may understand it, but apparently the other employees don't. Making up rules on the fly is not a sound business plan.

The issue is one of fairness in cost and openness in government, neither of which is happening in this instance.
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<  presidio  >
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline Picacho

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Backcountry fees
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2007, 12:54:20 PM »
Quote from: "RichardM"
Presidio, you sure do like to gripe, don't you?  Was Eric's response not clear enough for you or were you too busy thinking up negative things to say to read it?  You're not improving your image much today.  Just a friendly suggestion: you might consider checking out what the button can do for you.


Never question or complain about what the federal government says, they are always right.

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Offline RichardM

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Backcountry fees
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2007, 01:06:52 PM »
Quote from: "Picacho"
Quote from: "RichardM"
Presidio, you sure do like to gripe, don't you?  Was Eric's response not clear enough for you or were you too busy thinking up negative things to say to read it?  You're not improving your image much today.  Just a friendly suggestion: you might consider checking out what the button can do for you.


Never question or complain about what the federal government says, they are always right.

It wasn't the questioning of the government that bothered me, it was the continual beating of the dead horse and his apparent disregard of Eric's response which clarified the park's new policy.  He since said that he was just responding to the posts as he got to them.  Whatever.  In my opinion he still came across as a bitter whiner, which does absolutely nothing to help him get his points across.  For the record, I don't like the extra fees and agree there might be a better implementation.  However, I'm not nearly naive enough to believe that our government is efficient enough to administer the national parks on just what is brought in from their cut of our income taxes.  The concept that the parks are already completely paid for is just that, a concept.  If you want to get rid of fees then start lobbying your elected representatives to get the parks enough money.  Just be ready for increased taxes....

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SHANEA

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« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2007, 01:11:16 PM »
Let me know if anyone posts anything of interest here with the fee structure, as I'm not following the thread any longer.  As Casa Grande put it, it keeps going and going.  I like the way Troutwhisperer put it - Priceless (even though I hate MC commercials).  

The way I view it, if I can spend $2.xx per gallon of gas to get out there, then I can spend/afford more on a campsite.  Big deal.  I'd rather complain about gas prices or the price of toidys in the Texas Capitol apartment than the fees at Big Bend.  I've always thought that the fees at BIBE were too low.  For goodness sake, it's a use fee.  There is no free lunch.  You've got to "pay the way".  Nothing is free.  You can say all you want that you've already paid for it, or it is confusing, etc.  Want to complain about confusing things, then complain about our tax system.  I'm a hard core yellow - any dog will do Democrat and I don't mind paying the fees (and you thought Democrats always wanted the free lunch).  

Want to complain about the fees at BIBE, it's easy.
Write NPS BIBE.  Write the Department of the Interior.  Write the National Park Service.  Write your congressman.  Write your president (I'm sure he'd rather work on this than other things).

Better yet, if you don't like paying the fees, then don't.  Just don't visit BIBE.  Protest the fees by staying away (that way I have more of the park to myself).

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Offline Picacho

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Backcountry fees
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2007, 04:56:11 PM »
I am not sure why everyone is jumping on Presidio.  Eric answered the question I think, but again, based on what he said and what the website says a scenario like this is possible:

14 nights backcountry or zone = $10
13 nights backcountry or zone = $20
7 nights backcountry or zone = $70

If this makes sense to all those that don't like the complaining, then more power to you.  Maybe those that think they are paying too little for 14 nights in the backcountry can donate the other $60 to the park.  If this message board is for the sole purpose of heaping praise on the park, then maybe an announcement should be made and we can all only post positive things about Big Bend and any complaints can be sent directly to the park rather than discussing anything negative on this site.  Calling someone a whiner for discussing something about the new fees that seem strange is a little rude to me.  I'm over and out on this thread.  Happy Hiking in 2007 to everyone!

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Offline Casa Grande

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Backcountry fees
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2007, 09:32:21 PM »
Quote from: "Picacho"
I am not sure why everyone is jumping on Presidio.  Eric answered the question I think, but again, based on what he said and what the website says a scenario like this is possible:

14 nights backcountry or zone = $10
13 nights backcountry or zone = $20
7 nights backcountry or zone = $70

If this makes sense to all those that don't like the complaining, then more power to you.  Maybe those that think they are paying too little for 14 nights in the backcountry can donate the other $60 to the park.  If this message board is for the sole purpose of heaping praise on the park, then maybe an announcement should be made and we can all only post positive things about Big Bend and any complaints can be sent directly to the park rather than discussing anything negative on this site.  Calling someone a whiner for discussing something about the new fees that seem strange is a little rude to me.  I'm over and out on this thread.  Happy Hiking in 2007 to everyone!


this issue is a dead issue to me. I get it and I don't mind the fees. That is what I think.  You descenders can descend all day, I want that. Afterall, that is what this board is all about.  But if you want someone to listen to your opinion, you have to listen to theirs.  Also, if you want to bow out of the conversation all together, you can do that too....Free country, free board, and not overmoderated.  I'm proud of this board and a healthy controversy is good sometimes.  Make sense?  All comments are welcome here, I don't have to agree with them.

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Offline RichardM

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Backcountry fees
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2007, 09:48:39 PM »
Quote from: "Picacho"
I am not sure why everyone is jumping on Presidio.  Eric answered the question I think, but again, based on what he said and what the website says a scenario like this is possible:

14 nights backcountry or zone = $10
13 nights backcountry or zone = $20
7 nights backcountry or zone = $70

Yup, all of those are possible.  It all depends on how well you plan your trip.  We'll have to wait and see what flexibility the rangers have in applying fees in some of those situations.  It's possible that the folks in Washington considered all aspects and decided this is what they want to do.  Or maybe it was made without any thought as to how it would shake out.  Hard to say without input from those directly involved in the decision.  I think Okiehiker may be right in that it is intended as an administrative fee rather than a usage fee.

Quote from: "Picacho"
If this makes sense to all those that don't like the complaining, then more power to you.  Maybe those that think they are paying too little for 14 nights in the backcountry can donate the other $60 to the park.  If this message board is for the sole purpose of heaping praise on the park, then maybe an announcement should be made and we can all only post positive things about Big Bend and any complaints can be sent directly to the park rather than discussing anything negative on this site.  Calling someone a whiner for discussing something about the new fees that seem strange is a little rude to me.  I'm over and out on this thread.  Happy Hiking in 2007 to everyone!

I wasn't complaining about Presidio's initial discussion, just his multiple posts that did nothing to contribute to his arguments.  They were, in my opinion, nothing but negative whining at that point since the question of how the fees would be implemented had been answered.  Presidio has some great points to make, but every one of his "the NPS is greedy/incompetent/evil" posts just lowers his signal to noise ratio.  After a while that will only alienate those that otherwise might come to agree with him.  As you might have guessed, I'm possibly headed down that path.  Enough with the negativity, let's get back to talking about Big Bend.  :)

 


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