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Backcountry Permits are going online soon, but......

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Offline mule ears

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Re: Backcountry Permits are going online soon, but......
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2019, 07:24:56 AM »
I read the "First 58 sites..." then toted up all the backcountry sites where they explicitly list them, assumed they meant all of them (E.g. all four at Paint Gap), and all the CHisos Mtn sites and came up with almost 58, give or take a couple.  So that seems to be them.

I get a total of 64 sites, 41 Chisos sites and 23 roadside sites from the list they provided.
temperatures exceed 100 degrees F
minimum 1 gallon water per person/day
no shade, no water
http://40yearsofwalking.wordpress.com/

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Offline elhombre

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Re: Food for Thought: Backcountry Permits are going online soon, but......
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2019, 01:44:55 PM »
Check these stats out.  They show the park is seeing a significant decline with respect to tent camping.  They are all percentage drops in "Total Overnight Stays" in the 3 most busy months;  November, December, and March.  So the question is WHY all of the sudden is there a need for increase in fees and a reservation system when CAMPING occupancy is trending down. 

             November 2018                          Dec 2018                        Mar 2019
Tents                                -10.9%                  -14.6                            -30.3
Backcountry                    -41.6%                   -43.9                           -25.6
Total overnight stays     -9.1%                      -11.4                          -24.3

Got the data here.  https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/Reports/Park/BIBE  Go to "Year to Date report" at the bottom for the report generator.

The only consistent increase in occupancy that keeps the "Total Overnight Stays" percentage number from dropping even lower is the Lodge and RV occupancy.  There's a HUGE difference in the people who stay in the Lodge and RVs compared to the campers who will be most effected by the proposed reservation system changes.



« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 01:50:15 PM by elhombre »
First Russian Collusion, then Mueller, then Obstruction, then illegal payment to Stormy Daniels, then tax returns. Now no formal vote on impeachment for a 30 min. phone call to Ukraine

No crime. No evidence, just more secret investigations

Drain the Swamp.  America will survive.  God Bless America

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Offline PacingTheCage

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Re: Backcountry Permits are going online soon, but......
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2019, 02:03:08 PM »
Speaking of government, money, confusion, etc I recall a trip to BiBe about 10 years ago.

I was at the Basin station requesting a Back Country Permit. An extremely kind volunteer was helping me. It was almost 4:00PM but we were done with the process with the exception of the volunteer taking my money.

A Ranger walked up and said “it’s 4PM. We’re closed. You’ll have to come back in the morning”.

The volunteer and I were stunned. The volunteer had my money in her hand. The Ranger handed it back to me and tore up the completed permit.

It was pointless to say anything. Clearly if the government agency who was taking my money was the IRS they would have gladly kept the register open and their hand out!

🤣🤣🤣


Sent from my iPhone using Big Bend Chat

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Offline mule ears

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Re: Food for Thought: Backcountry Permits are going online soon, but......
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2019, 02:13:20 PM »
Check these stats out.  They show the park is seeing a significant decline with respect to tent camping.  They are all percentage drops in "Total Overnight Stays" in the 3 most busy months;  November, December, and March.  So the question is WHY all of the sudden is there a need for increase in fees and a reservation system when CAMPING occupancy is trending down. 

             November 2018                          Dec 2018                        Mar 2019
Tents                                -10.9%                  -14.6                            -30.3
Backcountry                    -41.6%                   -43.9                           -25.6
Total overnight stays     -9.1%                      -11.4                          -24.3

Got the data here.  https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/Reports/Park/BIBE  Go to "Year to Date report" at the bottom for the report generator.

The only consistent increase in occupancy that keeps the "Total Overnight Stays" percentage number from dropping even lower is the Lodge and RV occupancy.  There's a HUGE difference in the people who stay in the Lodge and RVs compared to the campers who will be most effected by the proposed reservation system changes.

Remember that the Dec. 2018 figure is affected by Trump's shutdown.
temperatures exceed 100 degrees F
minimum 1 gallon water per person/day
no shade, no water
http://40yearsofwalking.wordpress.com/

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Offline mule ears

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Re: Backcountry Permits are going online soon, but......
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2019, 02:13:56 PM »
Speaking of government, money, confusion, etc I recall a trip to BiBe about 10 years ago.

I was at the Basin station requesting a Back Country Permit. An extremely kind volunteer was helping me. It was almost 4:00PM but we were done with the process with the exception of the volunteer taking my money.

A Ranger walked up and said “it’s 4PM. We’re closed. You’ll have to come back in the morning”.

The volunteer and I were stunned. The volunteer had my money in her hand. The Ranger handed it back to me and tore up the completed permit.

It was pointless to say anything. Clearly if the government agency who was taking my money was the IRS they would have gladly kept the register open and their hand out!

🤣🤣🤣


Sent from my iPhone using Big Bend Chat

Now that is outrageous!   :pissed:
temperatures exceed 100 degrees F
minimum 1 gallon water per person/day
no shade, no water
http://40yearsofwalking.wordpress.com/

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Offline presidio

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Re: Backcountry Permits are going online soon, but......
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2019, 02:14:41 PM »
Quote
* Chisos Basin Campground: increase reservable sites to 2/3rds (#1-40), reservations available year-round, up to 6 months in advance.

Not everyone has a fixed schedule such that it all gets rigidly planned out.

Everyone needs to keep in mind several things:

a) The NPS hunger for money via fees is equivalent to whoring for crack cocaine. Cannot get enough and never will be satisfied. This was the predictable outcome of legislation that allows parks to locally keep a large percentage of the fees they generate. The more they charge, the more they can keep. This has nothing to do with workload. It has everything to do with revenue generation on the backs of users. The employee effort changes not one whit, only your cost for being able to enjoy a publicly-owned resource for which you must pay ever-increasing fees.

b) Fee increases always are couched in terms of "improving" the "customer" experience. Only problem is those improvements are awfully hard to see/use. But, rest assured, they are there even if invisible and imperceptible.

c) Consider the typical clientele the NPS is most interested in and caters to: the tourists who never get a quarter mile from any pavement. Folks who can plan months in advance for their special slice of "roughing" it. Folks who never care what it costs, yea, folks who are eager to pay whatever the NPS posits as necessary.

d) The backcountry user is just a victim of collateral damage from fee increases (merely another fee source to tap) even as they see nothing for their money. If the NPS used some of that money to expand backcountry roadside campsites it would very minimally approach being less objectionable. But, that doesn't happen because it's not about accommodating the visitor to/owner of public land, but about what the NPS in its sole authority deems appropriate.
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<  presidio  >
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline presidio

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Re: Backcountry Permits are going online soon, but......
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2019, 02:19:52 PM »
An extremely kind volunteer was helping me. It was almost 4:00PM but we were done with the process with the exception of the volunteer taking my money.

A Ranger walked up and said “it’s 4PM. We’re closed. You’ll have to come back in the morning”.

The volunteer had my money in her hand. The Ranger handed it back to me and tore up the completed permit.

It was pointless to say anything.

I would have demanded to see a supervisor, right then.

The NPS lives in its own special world, fundamentally disconnected from reality (and no clue whatsoever about customer service). You can be sure that village idiot was laughing all the way home for his/her exquisite handling of a difficult situation.

The funny hat sits especially tight on many of them, restricting oxygen and blood flow to the brain.
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<  presidio  >
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

Re: Backcountry Permits are going online soon, but......
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2019, 10:17:00 PM »
Frankly, I don't find the prices unreasonable at all. Yes, they are a huge percentage increase. But we crossed that Rubicon when they started charging a park entrance fee. (I still remember being incensed at the Reagan administration for charging a fee to enter my beloved BBNP.) But the price is a bargain, easily comparable to other western parks.

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Offline presidio

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Re: Backcountry Permits are going online soon, but......
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2019, 11:28:27 PM »
Frankly, I don't find the prices unreasonable at all. Yes, they are a huge percentage increase.

This is exactly the reaction the NPS relies upon for acceptance of their fee schemes.
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<  presidio  >
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline Flash

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Re: Backcountry Permits are going online soon, but......
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2019, 09:13:15 AM »
With regard to Zone Camping, I did not see anything new other than the significant fee increase. Did I miss the mention of any additional benefit such as advanced online permitting or are we still subject to the 10-minute personal lecture during NPS business hours?  :eusa_think: Up until now, living far away, I have had to plan my trips such that I arrive at the Visitor Center either very early the second day or late in the day the first. Advanced permitting for zone camping would allow a greater flexibility in making plans.

- Flash

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Offline VivaTerlingua

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Re: Backcountry Permits are going online soon, but......
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2019, 02:56:53 PM »
I completely understand that sentiment, but there is also a downside.  People start reserving sites farther and farther in advance and then you end up having to plan a trip months in advance.

Just buy the DVD and have the vicarious experience of watching others enjoy the things you used to be able to do when over-regulation was not the norm.

In the 70s a group of us arrived at the North Rim of the Grand Canyon. Summer season was well underway. Five minutes after parking we walked into the ranger station. Five minutes later we walked out with a multiday permit for the Inner Gorge. Thirty minutes after that we were on the trail.

Today? Good luck getting anything without meticulous planning and having numerous alternatives.

Try getting a permit to hike Havasu Falls.  They're gone the first day they become available.  So you have to pick your date in February, if you can even get a permit.  I'm not sure what the answer is when you have more people than permits but spontaneity is gone.

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Offline presidio

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Re: Backcountry Permits are going online soon, but......
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2019, 04:05:19 PM »
I'm not sure what the answer is when you have more people than permits but spontaneity is gone.

It's what you get when you go to structured/managed/controlled outdoor experiences (places under the thumb of the NPS and places like Havasu).

The answer is to go to the unstructured places....BLM & USFS, where the "services" (of the hand-holding and entertainment variety) are non-existent, but the quality of the experience is vastly better with at least as good scenery and, generally, no people clogging up everything.

Not to mention, you also do not need permits and don't have to be lectured (though there unfortunately are a tiny number of BLM/USFS places pretending to be like the NPS). Just avoid those few and go have fun.

Self-sufficiency, initiative and common sense are necessary, but there are oodles of spontaneity in the offing.
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<  presidio  >
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline DeserTrek

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Re: Backcountry Permits are going online soon, but......
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2019, 04:25:24 PM »
Unfortunately, Texas doesn't have such a thing : (

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Offline presidio

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Re: Backcountry Permits are going online soon, but......
« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2019, 05:17:16 PM »
Unfortunately, Texas doesn't have such a thing : (

Actually, you do.

Go to the national forests in east TX. Or the national forests in eastern Oklahoma/western Arkansas. Outside of hunting season you will have the entire place to yourself. If you even encounter a USFS ranger it will be a contact free of what you experience in NPS areas. You will be a public land user, not a suspect.

And, for anyone in most parts of TX, it is no farther (and in more than a few cases closer) to the BLM/USFS land in SE New Mexico than it is to Big Bend. Go where you want, camp where you want...permit and hassle free. Encountering agency employees there is a rare event. Again, you will be very unlikely to encounter other users.

Expand your horizons. Stop standing in permit lines, paying fees, getting lectured, and repeatedly hiking the OML, and go see places you've never been to.
_____________
<  presidio  >
_____________
Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline Jalco

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Re: Backcountry Permits are going online soon, but......
« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2019, 07:17:24 PM »
Unfortunately, Texas doesn't have such a thing : (

Actually, you do.

Go to the national forests in east TX. Or the national forests in eastern Oklahoma/western Arkansas. Outside of hunting season you will have the entire place to yourself. If you even encounter a USFS ranger it will be a contact free of what you experience in NPS areas. You will be a public land user, not a suspect.

And, for anyone in most parts of TX, it is no farther (and in more than a few cases closer) to the BLM/USFS land in SE New Mexico than it is to Big Bend. Go where you want, camp where you want...permit and hassle free. Encountering agency employees there is a rare event. Again, you will be very unlikely to encounter other users.

Expand your horizons. Stop standing in permit lines, paying fees, getting lectured, and repeatedly hiking the OML, and go see places you've never been to.

Presidio makes a good point.  From my house in Round Rock, I can drive to Panther Junction in 7.5 hours.  In the same amount of time I can drive to Eagle Rock Loop trailhead in Arkansas.  No permits, no crowds, LOTS of water, trees from which to swing a hammock, and I can build a nice fire at night.

 


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