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Terlingua Ranch Road?

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Offline Casa Grande

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2018, 03:40:38 AM »
Never had a problem with that road in a two wheel drive truck until this past summer.   Managed to get stuck in the sand on a 105 degree day. I wss unable to keep my momentum as it was a dog leg curve.  Luckily, I was able to rock myself out of it and back up until I hit some hard road n behind me.  Didn't want to take a chance with my son and my elderly disabled father in the truck, so I decided to turn around take the long way back to the Ranch.  First time that happened to me on that road.  Beware in a two wheel drive.

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Offline BlindWilly

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2018, 11:36:41 AM »
It's a fun road Willy. There are a couple of spots with loose sand - one of which is a good half mile - so you'll have to keep your momentum up. It does track in a creek bed for a section too in the Rosillos foothills, and the washes come up quickly if you're testing your rally skillz. I've taken my '87 SR5 on it a few times, once pulling an empty trailer. From the ranch, it can be used as a shortcut to Marathon vs. going through Alpine, but it's still about 45 min from the ranch HQ to 385/park road.

I'd be down for a weekend of exploring TR roads. I've done some, but there are lots more. Shoot me a PM if you and your buddies would like to stay at my place and check them out sometime.
Awesome, thank you!  It seems lately I only get out that way every 2 years.  :(
I'll be in BBRSP again this year, trying to find the Gorge.  :)
But you can bet I'll let you know next time.  I want to explore the back roads as well as Black Gap WMA.
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Offline Poppins

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2018, 08:35:19 PM »
Ok, I'm headed to BBNP and BBRSP in Feb and I'd like to try this road out.  I see it on the park map but can't really seem to follow it on google maps.  Is it self explanatory getting from east to west?  Seems like there are tons of roads out there and I'm not really not wanting to take a wrong turn.  Is it marked at all along the way?

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Offline rocketman

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2018, 10:02:42 PM »
Ok, I'm headed to BBNP and BBRSP in Feb and I'd like to try this road out.  I see it on the park map but can't really seem to follow it on google maps.  Is it self explanatory getting from east to west?  Seems like there are tons of roads out there and I'm not really not wanting to take a wrong turn.  Is it marked at all along the way?
From east to west, it is not really well marked. Keep in mind that it is only partially on public land, the rest cutting through private property. This road should not be considered as a viable shortcut to Terlingua. I'm surprised that you can't follow it on Google. The main track is pretty apparent if you know where you're supposed to end up, which is on the main Terlingua Ranch road 3 miles NNE of the ranch headquarters where the paved part turns to dirt. Google shows it as Marathon Rd. If you can't find it and follow it on Google, you probably shouldn't be on it.
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Offline presidio

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2018, 09:06:50 AM »
If you can't find it and follow it on Google, you probably shouldn't be on it.

I would add that if a person cannot go somewhere without detailed advance knowledge, and navigate to and from wherever they go, then they never will have a 'voyage of discovery,' but always will be following someone else's path and adventure.

Sadly, this inability to independently operate describes 99% of NPS clientele.

Oh, the horror of making a wrong turn and possibly stumbling on something you never knew about.

It's getting to the point of being amazing that anyone ever was able to function in the outdoors without Google Earth, a GPS on their cell phone, and forums where all mystery is removed about any location before ever setting foot there.
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Offline rocketman

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2018, 10:29:29 AM »
Good point Presidio. My point was more about staying off private property, where the consequences of making a wrong turn could be more serious than getting stuck or stumbling onto something interesting. This is Texas after all.
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Offline presidio

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2018, 12:16:36 PM »
My point was more about staying off private property, where the consequences of making a wrong turn could be more serious than getting stuck or stumbling onto something interesting. This is Texas after all.

Oh, I know.

However, on TR there's lots of roads and not lots of 'no trespassing' signs.

The various TR forums have endless debates about who can use TR roads and where one can go.

Opinions range (short version) to these two extremes:

a) only property owners can use the roads, and they only may use the most direct route to their tract.
b) it's a free-for-all and everyone, owner or not, can drive everywhere.

When looking at a map of TR, it's obvious that nearly every road passes through multiple tracts. Thus, unless you are at the last (or only) tract on any given road, passage cannot be restricted. This was established in one of two local court cases several years ago.

That case involved an owner erecting a gate, on a ranch road, at his/her tract boundary. I don't recall if they locked it or not. This was on a through road, not a driveway off the route (for which there would have been no issue).

At least one other owner (and maybe TR, I don't remember) contested this. The court ruled the gate owner indeed could erect said gate (bad call, IMO) but that owners past the gate could in no way have their access impeded (good call). As is the case in court rulings, issues not at suit were left unanswered. There was no decision whether non-owners also could drive past the gate. So, that was neither permitted nor prohibited.

The only other court ruling of which I am aware involved whether TR could do anything other than maintain the roads. The issue here was a prior TR administrative tactic of advertising and encouraging non-owners to come out and use TR roads. This resulted in commercial usage and associated trespassing. The court ruled TR had no authority to do anything other than maintain the roads, as the roads were privately owned (thus leading to the arguments over who can use them). While the roads were owned by whomever's tracts they crossed, the founding documents and covenants established that TR would maintain said roads (and this was really the sole reason for the annual owners' fees).

The fact that TR roads were deemed to be privately-owned still left open whether non-owners could use them or not. After all, these are access routes maintained by the ranch and not by the property owner whose tract is crossed.

It's clear the position, that only owners may use only the roads leading directly to their property, is illogical on its face. Were this true, no one could buy or sell property because you legally could not go there. The rocket scientists holding this view never have been able to explain how they, themselves, did not violate this restriction when they were shopping for a tract to buy.

Therefore, the reality is that road use is closer than not to the free-for-all model. Someday, the non-owner issue may get litigated, but it's an open-ended question at the moment.

That said, absent additional litigation to decide the non-owner issue, 'no trespassing' signs only would have effect on driveways, not the main routes (sometimes, distinguishing a driveway from the main road is not obvious). My opinion is such a restriction on non-owners will never occur because it seriously and unacceptably would impede real estate transactions.

Whenever I go to Big Bend I always drive around on TR roads, looking for that perfect piece of property that would allow me to camp without the burden of dealing with NPS campground fees, regulations and oversight.

I have driven hundreds of miles on these roads for nearly two decades. I rarely ever see anyone (I do this far from the over-populated HQ area) and the few times I've encountered another vehicle the only thing that occurs is a wave as we pass each other. Never, ever had anyone try to tell me I cannot be there.

If there is a 'for sale' sign on a property, I have zero qualms about driving onto it and taking a look. That extends to the rare property for sale that also exhibits 'no trespassing' signs/markings. Can't have an interest without an examination. Otherwise, I respect access restrictions that do not involve main roads.

My presence while doing this is 100% non-impactful. Unless someone sees me, no one ever knows I was there.
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Offline Poppins

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2018, 03:18:40 PM »
Thanks guys!  Sorry, I figured it out later on after posting.   :icon_eek:  It turns out I was looking at the wrong road, it is super easy to follow.  Looong day at work.   I know how to navigate using a compass and map fairly well, and I agree with you guys wholeheartedly.  I spent 6 days kayaking in the everglades 10,000 island area with nothing but a compass and nautical charts so I know the thrill of backcountry navigation.  I LOVE paper maps and all maps in general, so much fun navigating that way.  Anyway, great thread, thanks for the info and I can't wait to travel this road when we get there!!! :great:

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Offline presidio

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2018, 04:14:43 PM »
I know how to navigate using a compass and map fairly well, and I agree with you guys wholeheartedly.  I spent 6 days kayaking in the everglades 10,000 island area with nothing but a compass and nautical charts so I know the thrill of backcountry navigation.

Outstanding and in the top tier of outdoorsmen-persons!!  :bravo_2:
_____________
<  presidio  >
_____________
Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline Poppins

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2018, 10:59:14 PM »
I know how to navigate using a compass and map fairly well, and I agree with you guys wholeheartedly.  I spent 6 days kayaking in the everglades 10,000 island area with nothing but a compass and nautical charts so I know the thrill of backcountry navigation.

Outstanding and in the top tier of outdoorsmen-persons!!  :bravo_2:

Thanks, basically I'm an amazing human being, among the best.  You yourself are definitely top-tier as well!  Amazing!

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Offline bam.bam

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2019, 12:49:53 PM »
Presidio....Wheneve r I go to Big Bend I always drive around on TR roads, looking for that perfect piece of property that would allow me to camp without the burden of dealing with NPS campground fees, regulations and oversight.   Does this mean that theoretically you could park along the side of the road on the section of road that is not Big Bend without Ranger jurisdiction. I.e. that stretch of road that is going through private property.

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Offline LinuxGeek28

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2019, 04:32:33 PM »
All ranch roads are privately maintained and maintenance is paid for by the property owners association (POATRI).  For those that live in the city, think of it like the private lakes, tennis courts, pools and bike paths in certain housing developments.  They are maintained for the use of the home owners - not for the general public.

As an owner and part-time resident here in Terlingua Ranch, I do not appreciate people "exploring" the roads around my property unless they are my neighbors or they are researching property that is actually posted as "for sale".  The ranch is not a public park. 

And, although most of the land here is unimproved and used only occasionally by the owners, you should expect them to view you as trespassers if you are not actually a property owner and are not with a realtor. 

One exception comes to mind and that is accessing the Christmas Mountains land.  Permits are issued at the Ranch office.  I think it is understood by land owners that you cannot get to the access points without crossing private lands. 

(As a footnote, the majority of the Terlingua Ranch Road being discussed here is actually in Big Bend NP and therefore subject to park fees and park rules.  until recently, they allowed land owners to use the road if they were going directly to property in the ranch, but now you are required to pay the park admission fee even if you are only driving through to your land.)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 04:37:58 PM by LinuxGeek28 »

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Offline jim2

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2019, 04:54:20 PM »
Presidio....Whenever I go to Big Bend I always drive around on TR roads, looking for that perfect piece of property that would allow me to camp without the burden of dealing with NPS campground fees, regulations and oversight.   Does this mean that theoretically you could park along the side of the road on the section of road that is not Big Bend without Ranger jurisdiction. I.e. that stretch of road that is going through private property.
All ranch roads are privately maintained and maintenance is paid for by the property owners association (POATRI).  For those that live in the city, think of it like the private lakes, tennis courts, pools and bike paths in certain housing developments.  They are maintained for the use of the home owners - not for the general public.

As an owner and part-time resident here in Terlingua Ranch, I do not appreciate people "exploring" the roads around my property unless they are my neighbors or they are researching property that is actually posted as "for sale".  The ranch is not a public park. 

And, although most of the land here is unimproved and used only occasionally by the owners, you should expect them to view you as trespassers if you are not actually a property owner and are not with a realtor. 

One exception comes to mind and that is accessing the Christmas Mountains land.  Permits are issued at the Ranch office.  I think it is understood by land owners that you cannot get to the access points without crossing private lands. 

(As a footnote, the majority of the Terlingua Ranch Road being discussed here is actually in Big Bend NP and therefore subject to park fees and park rules.  until recently, they allowed land owners to use the road if they were going directly to property in the ranch, but now you are required to pay the park admission fee even if you are only driving through to your land.)
Thank you for sharing the locals point of view about the TR roads. I've been curious as I'm sure other have about what is out there. After reading your post guess I'll remain curious.

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Offline House Made of Dawn

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2019, 08:43:47 PM »

(As a footnote, the majority of the Terlingua Ranch Road being discussed here is actually in Big Bend NP and therefore subject to park fees and park rules.  until recently, they allowed land owners to use the road if they were going directly to property in the ranch, but now you are required to pay the park admission fee even if you are only driving through to your land.)


Ouch. Sorry to hear that. I hope that wasn’t because of interlopers/scofflaws ruining it for the property owners.



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Offline LinuxGeek28

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2019, 10:28:33 AM »
Actually, the announcement said it was to bring BBNP in line with national park policies, but I think "lost revenue opportunities"  might have factored into the decision as well.

 


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