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Terlingua Ranch Road?

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Offline rocketman

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2019, 07:04:12 PM »
All ranch roads are privately maintained and maintenance is paid for by the property owners association (POATRI).  For those that live in the city, think of it like the private lakes, tennis courts, pools and bike paths in certain housing developments.  They are maintained for the use of the home owners - not for the general public.

As an owner and part-time resident here in Terlingua Ranch, I do not appreciate people "exploring" the roads around my property unless they are my neighbors or they are researching property that is actually posted as "for sale".  The ranch is not a public park. 

And, although most of the land here is unimproved and used only occasionally by the owners, you should expect them to view you as trespassers if you are not actually a property owner and are not with a realtor. 

One exception comes to mind and that is accessing the Christmas Mountains land.  Permits are issued at the Ranch office.  I think it is understood by land owners that you cannot get to the access points without crossing private lands. 

(As a footnote, the majority of the Terlingua Ranch Road being discussed here is actually in Big Bend NP and therefore subject to park fees and park rules.  until recently, they allowed land owners to use the road if they were going directly to property in the ranch, but now you are required to pay the park admission fee even if you are only driving through to your land.)

Excellent post from a property owner's perspective. Thank you, and I feel the same way.
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Offline presidio

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2019, 11:25:48 AM »
Presidio....Whenever I go to Big Bend I always drive around on TR roads, looking for that perfect piece of property that would allow me to camp without the burden of dealing with NPS campground fees, regulations and oversight.   Does this mean that theoretically you could park along the side of the road on the section of road that is not Big Bend without Ranger jurisdiction. I.e. that stretch of road that is going through private property.

No. Because once you leave the roadbed, you are on private property. Those TR roads are not like public routes that have easements/rights-of-way wider than the travel surface. That of course begs the question about waterbars and drainage turnouts that intrude onto the private property. Fundamentally, they are not part of the travel surface so parking on them without owner permission clearly would be a case of trespassing.
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Offline LinuxGeek28

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2019, 12:29:32 PM »
No. Because once you leave the roadbed, you are on private property. Those TR roads are not like public routes that have easements/rights-of-way wider than the travel surface. That of course begs the question about waterbars and drainage turnouts that intrude onto the private property. Fundamentally, they are not part of the travel surface so parking on them without owner permission clearly would be a case of trespassing.

It is incorrect to say "TR roads are not like public routes"

TR roads are 100% PRIVATE roads maintained by POATRI. They are paid for by the land owners and maintained so that land owners can get to their property.  Think of them as shared driveways with private maintenance.  Within the boundaries of the ranch, the only exceptions are those roads that are maintained by the county (paved Terlingua Ranch road).  Unless you are with a realtor/buying land, please stay on the main roads and don't go exploring.  Otherwise, you are trespassing.

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Offline presidio

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2019, 01:37:53 PM »
No. Because once you leave the roadbed, you are on private property. Those TR roads are not like public routes that have easements/rights-of-way wider than the travel surface. That of course begs the question about waterbars and drainage turnouts that intrude onto the private property. Fundamentally, they are not part of the travel surface so parking on them without owner permission clearly would be a case of trespassing.

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It is incorrect to say "TR roads are not like public routes"

They certainly "are not" like public routes. If they were 'public routes' non of the controversy about use would exist.

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TR roads are 100% PRIVATE roads maintained by POATRI. They are paid for by the land owners and maintained so that land owners can get to their property.  Think of them as shared driveways with private maintenance.  Within the boundaries of the ranch, the only exceptions are those roads that are maintained by the county (paved Terlingua Ranch road).  Unless you are with a realtor/buying land, please stay on the main roads and don't go exploring.  Otherwise, you are trespassing.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but there is no legal interpretation that supports your contention.

I agree, and have said so, that leaving the extensive road network to drive upon a branching 'driveway' (I use the term loosely as some are quite lengthy) clearly is a trespass. Driving down a ranch-maintained road is not trespass. You are encouraged and welcome to cite legal justification for your position, but umbrage at someone using a community road through your property (unless you are the last tract, in which case the community part ends at your property line) does not case law make. I stake my opinion on that very absence of any legal determination regarding who may drive thereupon.

And, while you are correct the roads are 'private' (because of their genesis and lack of public dedication) their nature as a community transportation network necessitates that they are not 'private' in the strict sense of the word. They ARE 'private' in the context that no public money (tax revenue) is used to maintain them.

If these roads are strictly private, pray tell how you ever were able to traverse any of them to find the tract you bought (a situation/question I have posed in other threads on this topic)?

Your interpretation means every single prospective buyer must trespass across every tract they traverse in their search for a purchasable tract.

Thus, you yourself were a trespasser prior to purchasing. A very inconvenient fact using the scenario you present.

No logical thought process can sustain your premise that only an owner may use such a road.
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
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--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline Slimkitty

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2019, 07:34:37 AM »
Never had a problem with that road in a two wheel drive truck until this past summer.   Managed to get stuck in the sand on a 105 degree day. I wss unable to keep my momentum as it was a dog leg curve.  Luckily, I was able to rock myself out of it and back up until I hit some hard road n behind me.  Didn't want to take a chance with my son and my elderly disabled father in the truck, so I decided to turn around take the long way back to the Ranch.  First time that happened to me on that road.  Beware in a two wheel drive.

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We will probably be staying a couple of nights out in terlingua ranch on our next trip in November. Iíll have my Ford F-250 and am looking forward to finally driving Old Ore Road.  Iíd like to take Marathon road from Terlingua Ranch to the park, then access OOR from the dagger flat turnoff.  It doesnít sound like I should have any trouble with this route in my truck.  Have been through there recently?

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Offline Imre

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2019, 09:16:26 AM »
I asked a ranger about the Old Ore Road when I was in the park earlier this month. I was told that north of Ernst Tinaja you would need a serious high clearance four while drive and a spotter.
For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious, and wrong.
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Offline Casa Grande

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2019, 09:44:39 AM »
I asked a ranger about the Old Ore Road when I was in the park earlier this month. I was told that north of Ernst Tinaja you would need a serious high clearance four while drive and a spotter.
Since when? I've done it several times in a variety of four wheel and two wheel without a problem (save for wet conditions.)

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Online The Scorpion

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2019, 10:38:05 AM »
Last time I did the north side of old ore road just a few years ago there were a few spots that have degraded some and was a little more difficult. Had to use 4x4 in one spot (going south to North) just to get up in one spot, probably could have done it in 2 wheel drive, but eh...f150 4x4 here
I asked a ranger about the Old Ore Road when I was in the park earlier this month. I was told that north of Ernst Tinaja you would need a serious high clearance four while drive and a spotter.
Since when? I've done it several times in a variety of four wheel and two wheel without a problem (save for wet conditions.)

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Offline Imre

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2019, 10:58:42 AM »
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Since when?
I was told that the Old Ore Road had deteriorated considerably since June due to rains. 
For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious, and wrong.
- H.L. Mencken

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Offline jim2

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2019, 11:27:09 AM »
When we drove the OOR in April we Needed 4wd. It was rougher than I had ever seen it. In the past I've driven it in 2wd with no problem, the road has degraded to a much more fun state.
We did need 4wd, no spotter.

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Offline presidio

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2019, 11:30:21 AM »
I asked a ranger about the Old Ore Road when I was in the park earlier this month. I was told that north of Ernst Tinaja you would need a serious high clearance four while drive and a spotter.
Since when? I've done it several times in a variety of four wheel and two wheel without a problem (save for wet conditions.)

It's what you get when an employee is asked about a road they've never been on, coupled with advice tailored to the usual clientele: urban operators contemplating their first ever off-the-pavement adventure. Translation: it's so hard and dangerous we (the NPS) cannot recommend you trying it, as you may not survive.

As anyone with real 4WD/offroad experience knows, there is not a single road in Big Bend even remotely approaching a designation of "challenging."

But, for those with their urban warrior 4WD pickups that never have left pavement, the fear and trepidation of vegetation scratches and getting dust on the paint overshadows knowing how to operate said vehicle in conditions it otherwise is capable of handling (and in Big Bend, that usually can be done in 2WD).
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline VivaTerlingua

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2019, 11:58:42 AM »
I asked a ranger about the Old Ore Road when I was in the park earlier this month. I was told that north of Ernst Tinaja you would need a serious high clearance four while drive and a spotter.
Since when? I've done it several times in a variety of four wheel and two wheel without a problem (save for wet conditions.)

It's what you get when an employee is asked about a road they've never been on, coupled with advice tailored to the usual clientele: urban operators contemplating their first ever off-the-pavement adventure. Translation: it's so hard and dangerous we (the NPS) cannot recommend you trying it, as you may not survive.

As anyone with real 4WD/offroad experience knows, there is not a single road in Big Bend even remotely approaching a designation of "challenging."

But, for those with their urban warrior 4WD pickups that never have left pavement, the fear and trepidation of vegetation scratches and getting dust on the paint overshadows knowing how to operate said vehicle in conditions it otherwise is capable of handling (and in Big Bend, that usually can be done in 2WD).

Count me as a wimp.  A few years ago I drove Black Gap Rd. in my Toyota Sequoia 4WD vehicle.  If I hadn't seen a Suburban come out of there I would have thought it was impossible to do that road, so I went ahead completed it.  I guess I need to ride with somebody experienced some time to see what's possible.  P.S.  I don't care about scratches.

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Offline VivaTerlingua

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2019, 12:01:21 PM »
All ranch roads are privately maintained and maintenance is paid for by the property owners association (POATRI).  For those that live in the city, think of it like the private lakes, tennis courts, pools and bike paths in certain housing developments.  They are maintained for the use of the home owners - not for the general public.

As an owner and part-time resident here in Terlingua Ranch, I do not appreciate people "exploring" the roads around my property unless they are my neighbors or they are researching property that is actually posted as "for sale".  The ranch is not a public park. 

And, although most of the land here is unimproved and used only occasionally by the owners, you should expect them to view you as trespassers if you are not actually a property owner and are not with a realtor. 

One exception comes to mind and that is accessing the Christmas Mountains land.  Permits are issued at the Ranch office.  I think it is understood by land owners that you cannot get to the access points without crossing private lands. 

(As a footnote, the majority of the Terlingua Ranch Road being discussed here is actually in Big Bend NP and therefore subject to park fees and park rules.  until recently, they allowed land owners to use the road if they were going directly to property in the ranch, but now you are required to pay the park admission fee even if you are only driving through to your land.)

Excellent post from a property owner's perspective. Thank you, and I feel the same way.

So if I own Terlingua Ranch property and pay my dues, am I welcome on the roads anywhere in the Ranch or am I only supposed to drive on the road to my property?

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Offline presidio

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2019, 01:24:14 PM »
Count me as a wimp.  A few years ago I drove Black Gap Rd. in my Toyota Sequoia 4WD vehicle.  If I hadn't seen a Suburban come out of there I would have thought it was impossible to do that road, so I went ahead completed it.  I guess I need to ride with somebody experienced some time to see what's possible.  P.S.  I don't care about scratches.

Well, since you've done it, I wouldn't call that wimpy.

While there's experience to be gained by regular operation, much of 4WD operation really just boils down to attentiveness, speed appropriate to the terrain, and common sense. 4WD certainly can get you into places you cannot get out of without external retrieval, but stopping, looking and listening (especially to that inner voice that is telling you perhaps it's time to apply the brain instead of the gas) solves most issues.

What equally is important is to have and know how to use extrication equipment so that a stuck situation doesn't turn worse.

For example, a high-lift jack (not usually needed anywhere in Big Bend) is enormously useful for several functions, but it can be a deadly piece of equipment to the inattentive/careless (after all, such a jack can lift a vehicle almost 4 feet). Same for a winch. Seeing and surviving a broken & whipping cable makes a pretty indelible impression about handling such equipment correctly and safely.
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<  presidio  >
_____________
Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline presidio

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Re: Terlingua Ranch Road?
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2019, 02:00:12 PM »
So if I own Terlingua Ranch property and pay my dues, am I welcome on the roads anywhere in the Ranch or am I only supposed to drive on the road to my property?

Depends upon whom you talk to/believe.

I am not a property owner but I have zero qualms about driving on what clearly are access routes throughout the ranch.

As I have noted elsewhere, I don't leave the main roads (unless there's a 'for sale' sign, in which case I have no qualms about looking around that tract), nor do I pass closed gates, locked or not. I don't disturb or impact anything and, unless someone were to see me, no one ever will know I was there.

As I also have noted, taking the position that only owners can use the roads (and extreme versions limit owners only to the road(s) directly to their property) means that everyone not an owner (including real estate folks) are 'trespassing.' None of that passes the smell test of reasonableness.

In all the years I have roamed Terlingua Ranch, not once/never/ever has anyone tried to stop me or question what I am doing. Generally, I rarely encounter anyone away from the central part of TR and when I do the most that happens is a wave as we pass each other.

The TR issue of driving the main roads only is an issue in febrile minds.
_____________
<  presidio  >
_____________
Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

 


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