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How would a gov't shutdown impact campgrounds at Big Bend

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Offline presidio

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Re: How would a gov't shutdown impact campgrounds at Big Bend
« Reply #75 on: December 29, 2018, 12:35:30 PM »
I can see it. Imagine 100 people deciding "Hey, let's just go down this gravel road a half mile and crap here and maybe camp here wherever we want." It would start looking like day 3 at Woodstock.

This presumes there is a cadre of folks just waiting for the perfect opportunity to descend en masse when the NPS is looking the other way.

Not likely. While there's always a few opportunists, the majority of folks were going to be there anyway and the only thing that  happened is they are considerably inconvenienced because the NPS cannot, in any way, abide use without intense oversight.

A permit violation is a technicality and, like any petty offense, an officer can use discretion in addressing it. That rarely occurs in NPS areas, where rabid enforcement of minor rules is the norm.

If the funny hatters would concentrate on the few who are actually doing damage (off road, collecting, vandalizing, etc.) and leave the technical permit violations alone (aided by the superintendent having a backbone and deeming permits are waived during the shutdown), folks could have their fun and the NPS would be no worse off from a resource perspective than they routinely are.

A little imagination and regulatory restraint would go a long way.
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

Re: How would a gov't shutdown impact campgrounds at Big Bend
« Reply #76 on: December 29, 2018, 12:48:06 PM »
God help all the Americans who through the overt enslaving process have become dependent on all things Government.   Look at the chaos produced when funding is held up for a week.  Housing is closed (camp grounds), toilets back up, roads closed to vehicular travel, and government agents with guns outlawing many once-ordinary social and legal activities.   If you receive some benefit from Santa Claus for some of your well being, (over half of Americans now do), you are becoming one of the enslaved.

All brought to us by politicians who care more for illegal foreigners than Americans. A little secret;  all those illegal foreigners arriving instantly become dependent/ enslaved by Santa Claus.     :great:

Well, the vast majority of all of our families arrived here illegally and/or unwelcome. Sorry for the inconvenience.

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Offline presidio

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Re: How would a gov't shutdown impact campgrounds at Big Bend
« Reply #77 on: December 29, 2018, 01:45:38 PM »
Unless you'd kinda like to go backpacking.

Also at the face-to-face level, the stern arbiters of order - the remaining rangers at BBNP - are threatening citizens with citations and promulgating announcement posters. 

And low-impact, tax-paying, backcountry backpackers remain at home.   

Well, keep in mind this is affecting ONLY NPS areas. This is a problem exacerbated by the inability (and complete disinterest) of the agency to modify their crushing regulatory approach to allowing you to use your public land. Thus, we have an unusual circumstance requiring only a bare minimum of flexibility to solve, but they cannot bring themselves to consider such, much less act upon it. As previously noted, the superintendent CAN do something about it, but it requires leadership and concern for the public. Such is sorely lacking.

However, usage of BLM/USFS public lands (away from the few places they foolishly strive to be like the NPS with developments) continues to be completely free of closure and overeager enforcement folks.

The folly of allowing the NPS to dictate usage the way they do is on full display. It only highlights that you get to use parks when the NPS lets you use them.

On the other hand, backcountry use of the real public lands is not denied. The users of the real public lands don't need some permit that cannot be written and are not harangued about it by employees nor reminded with terse posted notes.

The other land agencies don't view you as an interloper who has to be granted permission to be on the land, or grudgingly tolerated while you are there. These other agencies understand it is public (your) land.

And, as I have pointed out in a different thread, if you're coming from the Houston/Dallas area, going to the BLM/USFS lands in southern NM essentially is a wash in terms of distance and time compared to going over and over and over and over again to Big Bend to be abused by the NPS,.
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline presidio

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Re: How would a gov't shutdown impact campgrounds at Big Bend
« Reply #78 on: December 29, 2018, 03:29:48 PM »
Well, the vast majority of all of our families arrived here illegally and/or unwelcome.

A questionable premise at best.

A good example of the popular, but incorrect, process of applying current views and politics to long-past events.

Some immigrants clearly were unwelcome, and the reviled groups were a moving target depending upon the times. Thus, every ethnic, political, economic, religious or racial group has been in the crosshairs at one time or another. Some still are.

But, the notion of the majority being 'illegal' arrivals has no basis. No basis at all unless you are in that mindset that Columbus was the first illegal (but what about Leif Erikson? and why isn't Columbus revered by the Democrats the way current illegals are?) and thus everyone afterward somehow is tainted with culpability.

All of civilization has been marked/marred by conquest, assimilation, subjugation and annihilation. It has occurred on every continent, throughout history. However, the only folks today who are guilty of that are those that still engage in the activities. Socialists and certain religious zealots immediately come to mind as their regimes conquer and purge those unaccepting of political/religious domination. Thus, for those of us who don't do those things, we have no responsibility/accountability/culpability for what any ancestor may or may not have done. Suggestions to the otherwise are rightfully rejected. We don't allow the concept Sippenhaftung (kin liability/crimes of the father) in the law and we surely should not entertain such an idea in a historical context.

There was no such thing as illegal immigration to the US until the late 1800s. Can't be illegal when there is no law. The very first immigration control passed was the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882. The next immigration law was not passed until 1917, when Asiatic Barred Zone Act was enacted, followed by the 1924 Immigration Act (none of these, all predominantly directed at Asian peoples, were stellar moments of national history).

The 1924 Act essentially WAS the immigration law until 1965, when quotas were formalized. This was when the US first put a limit on Mexican immigration. Previously, Mexican immigrants freely, and routinely, found work in the United States. (Note below, this occurred immediately after the Bracero program was scrapped, and this is where the current problems began).

Even the Mexican border was relatively uncontrolled into the 1930s, with free passage both directions (imagine that!). The rise of totalitarian dictators and WWII precipitated a number of things directly related to the need for border security (and, again, a wall is not the answer).

The inescapable fact is that the US emerged from the war as the most powerful, functional economic and political giant on the planet. The nation was relatively unscathed by the war, but said event resulted in profound social changes as population growth, manufacturing and agriculture exploded during the war, and in the aftermath, as we became, in more than a few instances, providers and saviors (think Marshall Plan and Japanese reconstruction) to devastated populations globally.

It was inevitable that the allure of a strong, stable government and economy would prove irresistible to many. With that attraction came the need to have orderly immigration controls. Things actually were okay until the bracero program (1942-1964) was eliminated. Repeating my note way above, it was to this point the current predicament of illegal immigration can be traced and which was allowed to become ever more problematic through the failure of political will in both parties.

So, the US has a history of inconsistent, and discriminatory/embarrassing immigration actions. So be it. Nothing we can do about the past. However, while it may take time (and sometimes a LOT of time) we do eventually try to correct egregious treatment and make concerted efforts to live up to the words contained in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence. To no one's surprise, there are folks and political interests that hotly deny this, and some of those same interests apparently think that zero controls are in the best interest of the nation. Most assuredly, they are not.

The takeaway is that for all the real and perceived ills of American society, a LOT of folks want to come here, legally or otherwise, and there is NO line of folks eagerly wanting to depart for other countries because life here is unbearable and so unfair.

There are those who complain and malign and threaten to leave, but never do as they know they have a good deal and just want to bitch. Oh that some of them would act upon their brave declarations.

The nation's doors have always, if imperfectly, been open to legal immigration.

The nation's doors MUST be shut to illegal immigration. The problem we have is a certain political party which has no interest whatsoever in exercising sovereignty controls, and another party that cannot get past foolish rhetoric of barrier controls.
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<  presidio  >
_____________
Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

Re: How would a gov't shutdown impact campgrounds at Big Bend
« Reply #79 on: December 29, 2018, 04:53:25 PM »
Quote
But, the notion of the majority being 'illegal' arrivals has no basis.

Yeah, I didn't say that. Unwelcome, certainly. And a lot of words irrelevant to campgrounds.

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Offline presidio

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Re: How would a gov't shutdown impact campgrounds at Big Bend
« Reply #80 on: December 29, 2018, 05:21:25 PM »
Quote
But, the notion of the majority being 'illegal' arrivals has no basis.

Yeah, I didn't say that. Unwelcome, certainly. And a lot of words irrelevant to campgrounds.

Actually, you did:

Well, the vast majority of all of our families arrived here illegally and/or unwelcome. Sorry for the inconvenience.

I'm confident I did not misquote you.

As for campground irrrelevance, your entire reply to elhombre (above) also had nothing to do with campgrounds and solely referred to the illegal/unwelcome arrivals.

But, that's now irrelevant, so let's move on.
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<  presidio  >
_____________
Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline dprather

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Re: How would a gov't shutdown impact campgrounds at Big Bend
« Reply #81 on: December 29, 2018, 05:33:41 PM »
Gentlemen, gentlemen...
Leave "quit" at the car.  Embrace the trail as your friend.  Expect to enjoy yourself, and to be amazed.

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Offline BlindWilly

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Re: How would a gov't shutdown impact campgrounds at Big Bend
« Reply #82 on: January 04, 2019, 09:20:28 AM »
It was a matter of time before the political BS was going to be posted.

Keep that crap on Facebook where it belongs!
"No matter where you go, there you are"
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Offline Desert Beacon

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Re: How would a gov't shutdown impact campgrounds at Big Bend
« Reply #83 on: January 04, 2019, 06:58:41 PM »
It was a matter of time before the political BS was going to be posted.

Keep that crap on Facebook where it belongs!

Thanks, BW.

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Offline marufo

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Re: How would a gov't shutdown impact campgrounds at Big Bend
« Reply #84 on: January 08, 2019, 09:08:39 AM »
A message from the Leave No Trace organization:
Desperate Times Call for Leave No Trace Measures

You've read the disturbing stories reported from our National Parks, now that the partial government shut down has moved into January. The situation is serious: wildlife picking through bins piled high with trash, latrines overflowing with waste and unfettered off-roading in fragile ecosystems. With 85% of National Park employees furloughed, rescue services are limited and maintenance continues to be deferred.

Please consider sharing our important recommendations for the duration of the shutdown through your various outlets:

1. Develop a Plan B: Choose an alternative to national parks and other federal lands if at all possible. The country has many vast and sweeping state parks and municipal lands, many adjacent or nearby. So if you can, give our national lands a breather.

2. Pack It Out: Plan ahead and prepare takes on an elevated meaning during the shutdown. Make sure that you equip yourself with extra bags for any potential trash that you generate and plan to remove all of it from the park. Pack out trash left behind by others to lessen potential impacts on wildlife, waterways, and the environment in general.

3. Itís Time To Try: Given that many restroom facilities on federal lands are closed or already compromised, the use of biodegradable, disposable toilet-in-a-bag-type products is essential. Even if it has never been in your repertory, this is a tremendously important commitment you must make to protect wildlife, water sources and fellow users. Contact your local outdoor retailer and ask if they have Restop, Clean Waste, Biffy Bags or comparable products so you can pack out your human waste.

4. Share Well With Others: With a lack of critical personnel on site at areas, many visitors will not receive important Leave No Trace information they would otherwise absorb from rangers. Share Leave No Trace far and wide with those around you. You may find that people are very receptive to hearing from you during the shutdown.

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Online House Made of Dawn

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Re: How would a gov't shutdown impact campgrounds at Big Bend
« Reply #85 on: January 09, 2019, 08:20:06 AM »
A message from the Leave No Trace organization:
Desperate Times Call for Leave No Trace Measures

You've read the disturbing stories reported from our National Parks, now that the partial government shut down has moved into January. The situation is serious: wildlife picking through bins piled high with trash, latrines overflowing with waste and unfettered off-roading in fragile ecosystems. With 85% of National Park employees furloughed, rescue services are limited and maintenance continues to be deferred.

Please consider sharing our important recommendations for the duration of the shutdown through your various outlets:

1. Develop a Plan B: Choose an alternative to national parks and other federal lands if at all possible. The country has many vast and sweeping state parks and municipal lands, many adjacent or nearby. So if you can, give our national lands a breather.

2. Pack It Out: Plan ahead and prepare takes on an elevated meaning during the shutdown. Make sure that you equip yourself with extra bags for any potential trash that you generate and plan to remove all of it from the park. Pack out trash left behind by others to lessen potential impacts on wildlife, waterways, and the environment in general.

3. Itís Time To Try: Given that many restroom facilities on federal lands are closed or already compromised, the use of biodegradable, disposable toilet-in-a-bag-type products is essential. Even if it has never been in your repertory, this is a tremendously important commitment you must make to protect wildlife, water sources and fellow users. Contact your local outdoor retailer and ask if they have Restop, Clean Waste, Biffy Bags or comparable products so you can pack out your human waste.

4. Share Well With Others: With a lack of critical personnel on site at areas, many visitors will not receive important Leave No Trace information they would otherwise absorb from rangers. Share Leave No Trace far and wide with those around you. You may find that people are very receptive to hearing from you during the shutdown.

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Offline tbone

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Re: How would a gov't shutdown impact campgrounds at Big Bend
« Reply #86 on: January 09, 2019, 10:40:28 AM »

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Online House Made of Dawn

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Re: How would a gov't shutdown impact campgrounds at Big Bend
« Reply #87 on: January 09, 2019, 03:17:53 PM »


                                                                                    :s_laugh:
"The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts."

 


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