Big Bend Chat

Big Bend National Park Q&A => Outer Mountain Loop => Topic started by: j.stone on October 04, 2015, 05:19:08 PM

Title: Establishing a speed record
Post by: j.stone on October 04, 2015, 05:19:08 PM
Greetings Benders,
I am wondering what is considered to be the fastest completion of the OML.  Here is a report of some guys who did it 18hrs.  Are there any that are faster?
http://www.summitpost.org/outer-mountain-loop-big-bend-national-park/847909

Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: mule ears on October 04, 2015, 08:13:34 PM
That is the FKT that I have seen.  He has it at 33 miles.  The NPS has is at just over 30 miles.  While I understand the concept of FKT's, especially on longer distance trails, it doesn't make much sense to me on  any trail much less the OML.  While some people refer to backpacking as a sport (and doing it in one day, this would not qualify as backpacking), to me it is not a sport, but an enjoyable pastime not measured in speed but quality of experience.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: Casa Grande on October 04, 2015, 10:15:06 PM
Zero interest in speed. If anything, I'd rather do it the slowest.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: Jalco on October 04, 2015, 10:15:56 PM
Zero interest in speed. If anything, I'd rather do it the slowest.

Ditto
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: j.stone on October 05, 2015, 07:39:42 AM
Friendly Advice From Expert Benders indeed.

I am surprised by the comfort and quickness you have all shown to judge us and our desire to enjoy Big Bend.  The wilderness, specifically a national park, is about freedom and open access to nature.

The WildWestGuy, you don't know me.  I did not post to this forum to brag and I am certainly not an idiot.  Your civility is still expected.

Mule ears: we are approaching the OMLl from a trail running perspective, not as backpackers. An enjoyable pastime is determined by each individual.  If it means something, I have back backed this trial following the suggested NPS route.  I am really excited to get back on the trail and see what our team can achieve. 

Casa Grande and Owl: I asked if anyone knew of a faster time than 18hrs. I didn't ask if you wanted to come.

Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: Reece on October 05, 2015, 08:24:50 AM
Sorry man but you're looking in the wrong place for trail running records since most here consider such haste a near-sacrilegious waste of our magical park.
You could probably do the OML even faster on a mountain bike...
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: mule ears on October 05, 2015, 09:59:23 AM
Mule ears: we are approaching the OMLl from a trail running perspective, not as backpackers. An enjoyable pastime is determined by each individual.  If it means something, I have back backed this trial following the suggested NPS route.  I am really excited to get back on the trail and see what our team can achieve. 


j.stone I knew that you would get the responses you did, nothing we can do about that.  Like I said, I personally don't get the FKT thing and yes I know that you are talking about trail running, something else I don't do.  We all approach the outdoors differently, good that we can all enjoy it in our own ways.  I always think about trail running as more a front country pursuit.  Just another sign of how a once very remote and undeveloped place is becoming less so all the time.  Fortunately I spend most of my time off trail where I will not be surprised by some folks jogging by.

Good to know that you have done the route as a backpacker, that should help in your attempt.  Seems to me walking at 3 mph should get you down to 10 plus hours.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: badknees on October 05, 2015, 10:53:00 AM
When is your intended start date?
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: Talusman on October 05, 2015, 11:00:03 AM
Always interesting responses on here. You never know. I can enjoy both ways. I agree that the slowest possible is the most relaxing thing to do. I would rather have the extra time in a place that I really enjoy. No doubt about it. Yet, even Lance and I have been talking about doing the OML in one day. Head out with lamps about 3-4 AM and finish up at the lodge for a late dinner and beer. Just for fun, which is an interpersonal experience even though most of us share a lot of common ground on what we love about Big Bend. I have made as many trips to the Bend in my 54 years as anyone I know. Mostly because of my location (close). I also have a busy life and have made many trips for just one day. To see and do as much as I want to do, these one day trips may require 7 hours of driving, leaving early and getting home late, but they are always wonderful. When I was 18 to 26 (before marriage) I went 20-30 days a year. Life gets busy and opportunity slows down. Sometimes a quickie is better than nothing!

Yes I agree the slower is better almost all of the time. Sometimes its just fun to go fast and see what we can do. Hey Lance, I think Mule ears set the pace for us one day at 3 MPH! (I'd prefer to go slower though and do 2.5, enjoy the view!)
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: Lance on October 05, 2015, 01:20:19 PM
Don't be discouraged by the posts above.  Most people don't get the FKT thing.
However, I think you did come to the right place to get info.  I can help you with logistics if you need it.
Sent you a PM with my contact info.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: fartymarty on October 05, 2015, 01:33:49 PM
I personally don't know of any record times or where to find them if they exist. I've never been drawn to the OML personally. Some will say I don't know what I'm missing. Maybe so, but I've yet to see any photos of anything worth hiking it for. Now to be clear, parts of it are very interesting but whenever I hear OML I always think of the desert section between Juniper Canyon trail head and Homer Wilson. It always sounded like a long hot shade-less up and down and up and down desert hike borefest. So where as some see no reason to run it, I see no reason to hike it at all. In fact running it (although of no interest to me) seems more sensible than walking it, at least it's a challenge. I suppose there are some that while hiking it would be annoyed with runners going by, too bad, the runners will be soon gone and it is their park too.
There are those that hike for hiking's sake, I'm more of a pay off at the end of the hike kinda person. I'm not saying that I don't like just hiking through the desert, but I can just pull to the side of the road and do that in several places in the park.  What am I saying?..basically saying what we've all heard before..Different strokes for different folks.

Here is some previous discussion about speed on the OML from 3 years ago that you might not have seen: http://www.bigbendchat.com/portal/forum/big-bend-national-park-outer-mountain-loop/oml-in-a-day/60/

j.stone, greetings to you as well, have fun, but be careful out there.
If you do it in less time than 18 hours I'll salute you.  :cool-thumb: (but I'd probably salute you if you did it in less than a day as well, so don't let my accolades swell your head  ;) )
 Once someone starts to keep records, I'd like to find out which is faster, Clockwise or counter clockwise.  :) That has been my only real interest in the OML, the mental exercise of, if I were forced to do it, which direction would I go. I pick CCW, but I'll never find out first hand if that is a good choice.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: Casa Grande on October 05, 2015, 08:31:40 PM
Casa Grande and Owl: I asked if anyone knew of a faster time than 18hrs. I didn't ask if you wanted to come.

Sorry if you took offense to my phlegmatic response to your query.

Some Benders like to nurture their bodies, some their psyche, and others their ego.  Personally, I like to nurture my spirit more than all the others.

To each his own.  Here's to your pursuit.



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Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: Quatro on October 05, 2015, 09:03:20 PM
Wow.  Didn't take this thread long to go south.  I enjoyed following the 14ers FKT threads as well as the Nolan's attempts this summer and would welcome following an OML FKT attempt.  In my opinion, this is the right place for a thread about all things BIBE including FKTs.  I hate it that someone had to go to SP to find out about BIBE.  14ers.com had a record number of followers during those attempts I think.   I'd love to follow a live tracking. 

As to SAR, I haven't  heard of any SAR needed on the Colorado FKT attempts although I get really nervous when they speed through the Elks.  I wouldn't imagine there are any NPS rules against doing a thru day hike.  But if you intend to cache water anywhere other than Homer Wilson and Juniper Canyon (where there are bear boxes), park rules require even water be stored in a bear cannister. 
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: tusker on October 06, 2015, 12:58:01 AM
The link in J. Stone's original post leads to a great trip report about the 18-hour hike.  It sounds like the guy who did it is a classic Bender who has been to BIBE dozens of times and climbed Pico Cerdo as well.  He gets it.

I can not imagine why anyone would want to move so fast as many of you do, but you have my best wishes and I want to hear the great stories.  Okiehiker and steelfrog come to mind.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: AggieOO on October 07, 2015, 11:23:36 AM
I spend a lot of time out in Big Bend, and the vast majority of the time, I'm hiking and camping.  However, I'm also an ultra runner, so Big Bend (and GUMO) offers a great opportunity to get in some trail running that cannot be duplicated in most of the rest of Texas.  I've never run the OML, but it'll probably be part of my training when I finally get in to WS100.  30-33 miles in not THAT long in the ultra world.

As for FKT, most ultra runners could go out at a very easy pace and destroy 18 hours without even trying.  You put a professional ultra runner on that loop and they'd destroy even the fastest time I could throw down.

I know most people don't understand how I could possibly enjoy some of the stuff I run b/c I'm moving "too fast," but I assure you, there are many ways to enjoy trails/nature/parks/etc.  I've hiked the OML and will do so again, but that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed on a run as well.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: Casa Grande on October 07, 2015, 01:20:58 PM
I've actually grown more intrigued by this post three more a read.

I guess I can see why this would be of interest to a minute subset of folks.



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Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: mule ears on October 07, 2015, 03:57:37 PM
I'm thinkin' j.stone is not coming back to play though.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: Casa Grande on October 07, 2015, 05:46:20 PM
I'm thinkin' j.stone is not coming back to play though.
Oh well. Sometimes it gets a little dirty in the sandbox. 

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Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: AggieOO on October 09, 2015, 09:44:24 AM
I'll probably be running OML in dec.  I'd be more than happy to come back and write up a report.

wife and I will also probably hiking it in November as well.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: j.stone on October 09, 2015, 07:45:45 PM
Greetings Friends,
Don't worry I'm still here.  Despite my quickness to chastise the trolls, I'm a punk-ass myself and not as offended as I seemed.  Anyhow, we are looking at a thanksgiving attempt.  the plan is to keep the pace fun, but serious.  Our goal is just to establish a time, not to make this an "A" effort for us.  I will certainly keep you posted and I will  post a trip report to the site when we are done. for those interested I keep a running blog at http://run-n-learn.tumblr.com/.  the latest post is a race report of a 88k ultra-trail with 20,000ft of elevation gain in the Basque region of Spain. 
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: Jalco on October 09, 2015, 09:41:10 PM
interesting link.  Thanks for sharing
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: AggieOO on December 02, 2016, 10:11:17 AM
Sorry for reviving an old thread, but figured it was easier than trying to reference everything here.  Looks like the OP did end up running the OML last year with a friend:

http://fastestknowntime.proboards.com/thread/1194/outer-mountain-loop-tx

his strava data/confirmation is in the above link.

I'm fairly sure I'm going to try and break this record on 12/18 or 12/19.  I'm driving out on the 17th and plan to cache some water at Homer Wilson.  It'll take some time to refill, but I'll more than save that time by running lighter.  The plan would be to leave from the Basin early on the 18th.  I've previously hiked the OML solo, so I know what I'm getting into.  Also, if you read the previous posts, I'm a pretty experienced ultra runner.  I'm also very experienced in the park...this will be trip 20 or so.  I lost count.

I did an 18 mile scouting run a couple weeks ago from the basin campground down to almost the Juniper/Dodson junction.  The trails are pretty overgrown, which made for much slower going due to not being able to see footing.  Thoughts on some of that grass "receding" by the 18th?  I fully expect my legs to be shredded and bloody (they were a couple weeks ago).

Planning on going clockwise so if I'm feeling crappy, I can bail at HW.  The distance and terrain doesn't worry me at all, but we all know things don't always go as planned.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: Lance on December 02, 2016, 10:19:31 AM
Good luck Aggie00, I'll be rooting for you!! 7hrs 58 mins seems like a fast time to beat. I'm impressed, but not surprised someone has done it that quickly. Now I want to see someone do 2 OMLs back-to-back for a speed record. :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin:

How will you keep track of your progress? Can we follow you online with a DeLorme device or something similar?
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: AggieOO on December 02, 2016, 10:38:42 AM
Looks like the time to beat is about 8:10, as the OP's GPS died a mile before the finish.  I was moving pretty slow/easy on my 18 mile scouting run a couple weeks ago, and held a pace that still would have brought me in under 8:10, and that included stopping for a bear and stopping to help with an injured hiker.  I feel pretty confident, but again, things don't always go as planned...and there's a difference between running up Juniper canyon at mile 9 and running up Blue Creek at mile 20ish...things could fall apart.  Good news is, my allergies have cleared, so I might actually be able to breathe this time!

I'll be running with a GPS watch, which I'll have to charge on the go, b/c my battery sucks on it.  As a backup, I'll also be carrying my GPS bike computer (its tiny), which has an 8 hour battery.  And I'll likely wear a second "standard" watch just to keep a stopwatch going in case both GPS devices die on me.  The bike computer allows me to sync to my phone for live tracking, but unfortunately, I won't have cell service to make that work.  Trying to get a friend's SPOT tracker, but he may be using it elsewhere that weekend.

I'll be staying in the park until the 21st, so trying to figure out what else i'm going to do.  I'd planned on going up Casa Grande again, but not sure they'll re-open the trails by then.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: VivaTerlingua on December 02, 2016, 10:49:41 AM
Looks like the time to beat is about 8:10, as the OP's GPS died a mile before the finish.  I was moving pretty slow/easy on my 18 mile scouting run a couple weeks ago, and held a pace that still would have brought me in under 8:10, and that included stopping for a bear and stopping to help with an injured hiker.  I feel pretty confident, but again, things don't always go as planned...and there's a difference between running up Juniper canyon at mile 9 and running up Blue Creek at mile 20ish...things could fall apart.  Good news is, my allergies have cleared, so I might actually be able to breathe this time!

I'll be running with a GPS watch, which I'll have to charge on the go, b/c my battery sucks on it.  As a backup, I'll also be carrying my GPS bike computer (its tiny), which has an 8 hour battery.  And I'll likely wear a second "standard" watch just to keep a stopwatch going in case both GPS devices die on me.  The bike computer allows me to sync to my phone for live tracking, but unfortunately, I won't have cell service to make that work.  Trying to get a friend's SPOT tracker, but he may be using it elsewhere that weekend.

I'll be staying in the park until the 21st, so trying to figure out what else i'm going to do.  I'd planned on going up Casa Grande again, but not sure they'll re-open the trails by then.

What type of phone do you have?  iphone does not require cell service to use the GPS.  In fact you can put it in airplane mode and the GPS still works.  Cyclemeter and Gaia GPS apps work fine in airplane mode and drain the battery very slowly.  In 8 hours you'd probably only use 20-25% of your battery with one of these apps and in airplane mode.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: mule ears on December 02, 2016, 10:59:47 AM
Good luck, let us know how it goes.  Done in a day is one way to deal with the bear closures!   :evil:
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: dprather on December 02, 2016, 11:01:54 AM
Truth be told, even slow-paced old backpackers are considered to be a bubble or two off by most of the civilized world. 

Only small increments of insanity separate "normal" BBC backpackers from "abnormal" trailrunners.

Best of luck.

If you see me on the trail, honk so I'll know to move over.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: seththesailor on December 02, 2016, 11:10:13 AM
Interesting topic that I have considered several times.  I ran it last February on a whim (meaning I woke up and thought, I'm going to run the OML today), and have since wondered if there was an established FKT.  I am not a real runner, but sub 8 hours struck me as a very attainable goal and I have thought about making a "serious" attempt at a PR.  I think that could be accomplished power hiking the ups and jogging the downs and flats. 

FWIW, I think the OML makes for a really enjoyable trail run (even better than backpacking it IMO), since you can move so fast and not have to carry much water.  The scenery is also varied and mostly runnable.  Although not a traditional OML, another option would be to go counterclockwise starting @ homer Wilson.  This allows you to get across the Dodson early in the morning and to stop in the basin for lunch/bail out.

Have fun!  I may have to start planning my own attempt.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: AggieOO on December 02, 2016, 11:29:33 AM


FWIW, I think the OML makes for a really enjoyable trail run (even better than backpacking it IMO), since you can move so fast and not have to carry much water.  The scenery is also varied and mostly runnable.  Although not a traditional OML, another option would be to go counterclockwise starting @ homer Wilson.  This allows you to get across the Dodson early in the morning and to stop in the basin for lunch/bail out.


I contemplated starting at homer wilson and going clockwise so that i'd get both big climbs on "fresh legs," but decided against it since it would only give me a bailout point at the basin, which would be too early in the run.  Thought about the counterclockwise option as well, but would rather have shorter/steeper climbs and longer runnable descents on Juniper and Laguna, rather than long climbs up and much less runnable descents.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: AggieOO on December 02, 2016, 11:31:06 AM
Looks like the time to beat is about 8:10, as the OP's GPS died a mile before the finish.  I was moving pretty slow/easy on my 18 mile scouting run a couple weeks ago, and held a pace that still would have brought me in under 8:10, and that included stopping for a bear and stopping to help with an injured hiker.  I feel pretty confident, but again, things don't always go as planned...and there's a difference between running up Juniper canyon at mile 9 and running up Blue Creek at mile 20ish...things could fall apart.  Good news is, my allergies have cleared, so I might actually be able to breathe this time!

I'll be running with a GPS watch, which I'll have to charge on the go, b/c my battery sucks on it.  As a backup, I'll also be carrying my GPS bike computer (its tiny), which has an 8 hour battery.  And I'll likely wear a second "standard" watch just to keep a stopwatch going in case both GPS devices die on me.  The bike computer allows me to sync to my phone for live tracking, but unfortunately, I won't have cell service to make that work.  Trying to get a friend's SPOT tracker, but he may be using it elsewhere that weekend.

I'll be staying in the park until the 21st, so trying to figure out what else i'm going to do.  I'd planned on going up Casa Grande again, but not sure they'll re-open the trails by then.

What type of phone do you have?  iphone does not require cell service to use the GPS.  In fact you can put it in airplane mode and the GPS still works.  Cyclemeter and Gaia GPS apps work fine in airplane mode and drain the battery very slowly.  In 8 hours you'd probably only use 20-25% of your battery with one of these apps and in airplane mode.

The problem is, the live tracking on the cycling computer requires the phone to send data back to garmin, which is why i'd need a cell signal.  i'll do more research, but i'm almost positive that it requires data to be sent back, not just the GPS active.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: VivaTerlingua on December 02, 2016, 01:18:28 PM

The problem is, the live tracking on the cycling computer requires the phone to send data back to garmin, which is why i'd need a cell signal.  i'll do more research, but i'm almost positive that it requires data to be sent back, not just the GPS active.

Why not just use the phone solo to record the trek?  Is the live tracking necessary or just a record of your run?
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: Robert on December 02, 2016, 03:16:37 PM
Quote
The problem is, the live tracking on the cycling computer requires the phone to send data back to garmin, which is why i'd need a cell signal.  i'll do more research, but i'm almost positive that it requires data to be sent back, not just the GPS active.

Yes, you need a cell signal to use live tracking as that is how the data gets sent to the Garmin website. You do not need a cell phone just to record the data (the Garmin device has a GPS) and can upload it later when you get a signal. Live tracking is pretty cool, it sends an email to designated users with a link to a map that tracks your progress real time.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: AggieOO on December 02, 2016, 04:03:46 PM

The problem is, the live tracking on the cycling computer requires the phone to send data back to garmin, which is why i'd need a cell signal.  i'll do more research, but i'm almost positive that it requires data to be sent back, not just the GPS active.

Why not just use the phone solo to record the trek?  Is the live tracking necessary or just a record of your run?

live tracking is not necessary, but someone asked about it.

as far as just using the phone to record, i could, but i prefer to have someone on my wrist that i can glance down at while running.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: Buck on December 03, 2016, 07:15:15 AM
I used to be competitive.  I ran track and cross country in high school, participated in National Forensic League debate, jockeyed for top grades in college and then climbed the corporate ladder while jockeying for an edge in Dallas traffic each day.  That ship has sailed.  When in the Bend, I rarely have a watch and seldom stay on any trail. 

It is a spiritual breaking of the chains.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: Talusman on December 03, 2016, 08:54:43 AM
I used to be competitive.  I ran track and cross country in high school, participated in National Forensic League debate, jockeyed for top grades in college and then climbed the corporate ladder while jockeying for an edge in Dallas traffic each day.  That ship has sailed.  When in the Bend, I rarely have a watch and seldom stay on any trail. 

It is a spiritual breaking of the chains.

Though I see some fun with a non-stop circle of the OML, I have to say to Buck's response "Amen"
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: dprather on December 03, 2016, 03:29:56 PM
I used to be competitive.  I ran track and cross country in high school, participated in National Forensic League debate, jockeyed for top grades in college and then climbed the corporate ladder while jockeying for an edge in Dallas traffic each day.  That ship has sailed.  When in the Bend, I rarely have a watch and seldom stay on any trail. 

It is a spiritual breaking of the chains.

Amen brother!
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: AggieOO on December 05, 2016, 08:32:44 AM
I used to be competitive.  I ran track and cross country in high school, participated in National Forensic League debate, jockeyed for top grades in college and then climbed the corporate ladder while jockeying for an edge in Dallas traffic each day.  That ship has sailed.  When in the Bend, I rarely have a watch and seldom stay on any trail. 

It is a spiritual breaking of the chains.

the good thing for me is that i enjoy the remote parts of the park, off trail, and wandering aimlessly as well.   Plenty of ways to experience Big Bend.

After the OML loop, I'll likely head off trail and poke around.  And I'll probably have my road bike with me as well to do some cycling.  One thing I love about the park is the incredible amount and types of experiences it offers.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: nopainnogain on December 05, 2016, 01:10:25 PM
Sounds pretty dangerous...running .
I got pretty close to a rattle snake  on the trail Dodson.
I waited a long time for it to slither away.
A runner would have stepped on it and get bit.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: AggieOO on December 05, 2016, 01:14:06 PM
not even remotely worried about snakes in mid-december.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: jake.the.snake on December 09, 2016, 12:14:46 PM
Zero interest in speed. If anything, I'd rather do it the slowest.
Haha love this! Ditto!


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Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: AggieOO on December 17, 2016, 01:07:23 PM
Had to cancel the trip. Will give it a shot some other time.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: oml on November 08, 2019, 06:44:41 PM
I have done this (as a trail run not as a FKT attempt) and a few words of advice on anyone else attempting.

- Do it clock-wise.  We did it counter-clock wise and ran out of water with about 10 miles to go, but luckily found a cache with "free" water that saved our asses.  We had dropped water off at Dodson, but going counter-clockwise you hit that way too early.   We refilled our camelbacks and wrote "free" on the bottles.   Turned out this was good karma that we cashed in when we found the second cache at Juniper Canyon road.   If you're going to do two water drops, then the direction is irrelevant.

- Start early.  We started at 10am (big mistake) and thought we were in 8-9 hour shape, but took almost 10 hours.  Starting late meant we finished in the dark.   No fun.  Of course we had headlamps and were fine, but I would have rather finished with light.

- Really easy to go off trail at Dodson by the first water drop.  Look for the cairns and dont just blindly follow the creek bed.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: Willgotnochill on November 09, 2019, 08:34:03 PM
I know Zachery Teich did it in 8 hours and 51 minutes. Made a great vid about it on his YouTube channel.


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Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: roadtrip on November 10, 2019, 12:52:04 PM
I used to be competitive.  I ran track and cross country in high school, participated in National Forensic League debate, jockeyed for top grades in college and then climbed the corporate ladder while jockeying for an edge in Dallas traffic each day.  That ship has sailed.  When in the Bend, I rarely have a watch and seldom stay on any trail. 

It is a spiritual breaking of the chains.
I love that.
Those chains are hard to break but they need to be broken.
Title: Re: Establishing a speed record
Post by: Al on November 10, 2019, 03:53:06 PM
Zero interest in speed. If anything, I'd rather do it the slowest.
Haha love this! Ditto!


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Ditto 2.  That's never been what my Big Bend trips are about.