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How come it's called that?

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Offline 01ACRViper

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How come it's called that?
« on: October 08, 2006, 10:11:26 PM »
I checked this book out of the library tonight and if anyone has any questions, i'll try my best to find the answers  8)

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Offline colorado

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how come it's called that?
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2006, 10:53:19 PM »
any idea where mariscal mountain/canyon got its name?

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Offline 01ACRViper

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How come it's called that?
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2006, 11:00:28 PM »
"The spanish word Mariscal means marshal or blacksmith, and some of the local people say it also means "big shot", or an important person. They say that Mariscal was named for Albino Villa Alfelias, an indian fighter, whom the mexicans considered an important person."

that's all that is mentioned.

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Offline colorado

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mariscal
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2006, 11:32:27 PM »
thanks, i knew mariscal means marshal just didn't know why the mountain was named as such. sounds like an interesting read. i'll have to check it out. thanks again. adios

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Offline homerboy2u

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How come it's called that?
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2006, 09:53:25 AM »
Quote from: "01ACRViper"
"The spanish word Mariscal means marshal or blacksmith".


 I never knew that Mariscal, meant Blacksmith... :shock:

   According to little spanish i speak, Blacksmith in spanish is Herrero.

But then again, i could always be wrong.

Viper;

 See what your books says about Alvar Nu?ez Cabeza de Vaca , this is a very common name in the Big Bend-El Carmen region....very popular,indeed.

 I asked this to BBH, but he neve answered, maybe it?s a tuffy !!
Stay thirsty, my friends.

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Offline Undertaker

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How come it's called that?
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2006, 10:11:06 AM »
Homerboy2u2, He was an early spanish explorer in the area.
Visiting BB since 1966, nothing like being lost and finding heaven.

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Offline homerboy2u

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How come it's called that?
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2006, 11:35:21 AM »
Quote from: "Undertaker"
Homerboy2u2, He was an early spanish explorer in the area.


 Right you are,mr. Undertaker....But for our general public, Alvar Nu?ez Cabeza de Vaca, was the first explorer who traverse the whole area , registering all records of history in that area , for the first time.

  Any records logged from the spaniars, and on is due to him. He was the one who contacted the natives, made the maps of the area and eventually showed the world of this beautiful area called Big bend-El Carmen.

 That is why , he is so important for us hardcore?s.

FYI
Stay thirsty, my friends.

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Offline jeffblaylock

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How come it's called that?
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2006, 11:51:29 AM »
The Handbook of Texas also makes the association with the mountain and Albino Villa Alfelias.
Jeff Blaylock
Austin, Texas

"We'll be back, someday soon. We will return, someday, and when we do the gritty
splendor and the complicated grandeur of Big Bend will still be here. Waiting for us."--Ed Abbey

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Offline Roy

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How come it's called that?
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2006, 02:00:33 PM »
Quote from: "homerboy2u2"
Quote from: "Undertaker"
Homerboy2u2, He was an early spanish explorer in the area.


 Right you are,mr. Undertaker....But for our general public, Alvar Nu?ez Cabeza de Vaca, was the first explorer who traverse the whole area , registering all records of history in that area , for the first time.

  Any records logged from the spaniars, and on is due to him. He was the one who contacted the natives, made the maps of the area and eventually showed the world of this beautiful area called Big bend-El Carmen.

 That is why , he is so important for us hardcore?s.

FYI

Hey Homer;
Old Cow's Head is familiar to most Texans and all across our Southwest.  He, and his black companion Estevan, inspired the Coronado expedition to "El Dorado" which opened up New Mexico, Arizona, etc..  I got interested in this several years ago and followed Coronado's path (at least where there are roads);  The ruins of the Indian pueblos he visited are still there, and one, Acoma, is still partially occupied, although I think it's mostly for the tourists.  Most impressive moment on this trip:  standing on the bluff above old Hawikuh Pueblo, which Coronado thought was the first of the seven cities, and seeing the plain and the Zuni River exactly as he described them over 450 years ago.  This was the site of the first fight between Europeans and Native Americans in what is now the USA.
There's a book "Cities of Gold" by Doublas Preston that I used to plan this trip;  he also wrote one about the Camino Real and one about the Big Bend area canyon called the Devil's Graveyard;  here's a link if anyone's interested.

http://www.prestonchild.com/solonovels/preston/ribbons/art80,151.html

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Offline presidio

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How come it's called that?
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2006, 03:09:26 PM »
Quote from: "Roy"
Acoma, is still partially occupied, although I think it's mostly for the tourists.


Actually, Acoma is maintained for reasons having nothing to do with tourists, though they are allowed to visit the mesa.

There are a very few permanent residents of the Sky City; about 50 out of a tribal population of around 2200. Typically, mesa residents are traditionalists because there are no utilities at all on the mesa. It is used for religious ceremonies (which are closed to tourists) and feast days (which are open). Everyone else lives in regular, relatively modern housing around the pueblo lands.

The only reason tourists can easily visit the mesa today is because a movie company built the road to the top in 1969. It is perhaps a decision the tribe today somewhat regrets allowing. However, it has provided for a booming tourist industry that is carefully controlled.

If you visit, you can walk down the only access trail that existed prior to the road. In doing so you will understand how easily defended the mesa was and the rather large price the Spanish paid in conquering the tribe.

It is a spectacular setting.
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline Roy

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How come it's called that?
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2006, 04:32:55 PM »
Yeah;  from what I remember there were some hard feelings between tribal members about letting the tour groups up there;  about half the homes that were occupied were selling crafts; some beautiful pottery.  And one resident had a brand new bright red Mustang convertible.  I think their major source of income these days is the casino, which is north of the Interstate.  This is where I saw a couple of German tourists poking around in the cemetery;  they kept sneaking away from their tour group. Not sure what they were up to;  they got kicked out  after someone noticed them behind the church.  I think they searched them pretty thoroughly before they let them go.

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Offline presidio

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How come it's called that?
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2006, 06:40:01 PM »
Quote from: "Roy"
Yeah;  from what I remember there were some hard feelings between tribal members about letting the tour groups up there;


All the tribes and pueblos have internal disagreements about the extent to which they allow outsiders to interact. There's a broad spectrum from traditional to progressive...just like every other political system.

Quote
I saw a couple of German tourists poking around in the cemetery;  they kept sneaking away from their tour group. Not sure what they were up to;  they got kicked out  after someone noticed them behind the church.  I think they searched them pretty thoroughly before they let them go.


The tribes/pueblos are all very serious about unattended wandering by tourists. They don't tolerate much of it at all. It is exacerbated by the beliefs of some tourists that they are in some kind of indigenous Disneyland and everything is open for their inspection.

Up until the early 90s the Zunis were the only tribe that allowed any non-Indian to observe an actual religious ceremony. I've forgotten what it's called, but occurs usually in early December and runs from dusk to dawn. It usually is bitterly cold then, as much as -20. There are and were numerous signs regarding the strict, unyielding requirement of no photos, videos, sketching or recording of any facet of what goes on that night in any of approx a dozen homes around the pueblo that host the event.

All the home were open to anyone who wished to enter and the crowds were so large that one home's floor collapsed due to overloading. Every home had large food tables and drinks stacked to the ceiling (literally) and you were expected to help yourself AND eat in every house you visited.

The event had great religious significance to the tribe and, even if you couldn't comprehend was was really going on, it was incredibly mesmerizing to watch. Clearly, fatigue was an important component of the ceremony because by dawn you could easily believe the mythical representations of the various creatures were absolutely real.

For many years the pueblo had struggled with the concept of allowing tourists to view this. No other pueblo tribe ever went that far. As always, there were annual attempts by the unscrupulous to surreptitiously photo, video and sound record the event, aided in concealment no small measure by the heavy clothing worn for the weather.

Every year there were cameras confiscated and tourists forcibly ejected from the pueblo. Every year, the tribal council struggled with tradition vs. a major opportunity for tribal members to reap some financial benefit in a hard time of year.

Finally, it became too much. Around 1991 or so, the pueblo's shaman overruled the tribal council and banned anyone not a tribal member from being on the pueblo during the ceremony. Other non-Zuni Indians were allowed, but only at the sponsorship of a tribal member.

Thus ended a truly unique opportunity to witness something that to this day is still closed to outsiders. The moral of the story? There's always someone who will screw it up for everyone.
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<  presidio  >
_____________
Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline homerboy2u

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How come it's called that?
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2006, 07:49:16 PM »
One thing about history.....anyone who doesn't know it is destined to repeat it !!!
Stay thirsty, my friends.

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Offline Roy

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How come it's called that?
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2006, 08:35:19 PM »
The winter ritual is Shalako (had to look it up);  I seem to remember a spring ritual that the public could attend but can't find a reference.  I also think I remember an incident like you describe.
My trip was in fall 1994;  the year after the Hanta virus outbreak.  I think I was the only tourist in Zuni.  I stopped and talked to the people at the tribal office before trying to find the old Hawikuh site;  they were surprised I knew what it was and where it was;  the ritual center in Zuni is (new) Hawikuh, and they initially thought that was what I was talking about.  They were also surprised that I stopped and asked permission instead of just heading out.  They wound up inviting me back.

 


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