Big Bend Chat

Other Parks of the Big Bend Region => Big Bend Ranch State Park Q&A => Topic started by: fesser nohair on December 10, 2007, 10:07:57 PM

Title: Solitario in Winter
Post by: fesser nohair on December 10, 2007, 10:07:57 PM
Are there two more folks willing to be exploited to the tune of $600 each for a guided "Hike Through Time" in January or February 2008?  My buddy and I are looking for two more to make up the four person minimum for the Desert Sports Lower Shutup Hike Through Time. 

See http://www.desertsportstx.com/tripshiking.php for details.

Fesser Nohair
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: xseption on December 11, 2007, 09:29:54 AM
Wow! Looks very interesting. Any firm dates?

~ edd
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: presidio on December 11, 2007, 11:12:34 AM
Are there two more folks willing to be exploited to the tune of $600 each for a guided "Hike Through Time"

Woo....pricey $$$$. That must be one heck of a hike. Does the guide carry everyone's gear for them? Must be filet mignon every meal with fine wine, too????? If this doesn't include a mint on your pillow each night, somethings missing.

I notice their description isn't all that informative as to what you get for your money.
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: badknees on December 11, 2007, 04:36:51 PM
Are there two more folks willing to be exploited to the tune of $600 each for a guided "Hike Through Time"

Woo....pricey $$$$. That must be one heck of a hike. Does the guide carry everyone's gear for them? Must be filet mignon every meal with fine wine, too????? If this doesn't include a mint on your pillow each night, somethings missing.

I notice their description isn't all that informative as to what you get for your money.

My sentiments exactly! I could travel all the way from Houston, do that hike, spend a night in a motel and drive back home with money to spare.  Don't need no stinkin' guide. Got a map and can buy a book!


Ooops sorry....got carried away,
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: fesser nohair on December 11, 2007, 06:37:51 PM
Well, yea, as a matter of fact, they do carry most of your stuff.  You carry your water, snacks, sunscreen, camera, other personal items.  They provide transportation from (and back to) Terlingua, food, water, tent, and an experienced, medically trained guide who knows the geology, flora and fauna, history, and not the least, the way out.  If you're interested, I urge you to get the details from them:  Desert Sports (888) 989-6900

Hey, it's good to have choices.  You do it your way, and we'll compare notes afterward.  I understand, though, from several different sources that you can't do this one without a state-approved guide.

xception:  We're flexible on dates.  Easier to say when we can't, which is on and about: January 21, February 18, or February 24.
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: Al on December 11, 2007, 07:01:43 PM
Are there two more folks willing to be exploited to the tune of $600 each for a guided "Hike Through Time"

Woo....pricey $$$$. That must be one heck of a hike. Does the guide carry everyone's gear for them? Must be filet mignon every meal with fine wine, too????? If this doesn't include a mint on your pillow each night, somethings missing.

I notice their description isn't all that informative as to what you get for your money.

My sentiments exactly! I could travel all the way from Houston, do that hike, spend a night in a motel and drive back home with money to spare.  Don't need no stinkin' guide. Got a map and can buy a book!


Ooops sorry....got carried away,

There are many ways to enjoy the desert . . . different strokes for different folks!  Tents/tarps/nada/campers/RVs/cabins/lodge/motels/hotels/guides/no guides.  It's all good.  Us folks that do our own thing camping tend to look down on the RV/lodge/motel crowd.  Bet they look down at us poor campers the same way.


Al
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: SHANEA on December 11, 2007, 07:22:57 PM
I understand, though, from several different sources that you can't do this one without a state-approved guide.

Interesting, it's my understanding that the entire park has now been divided into zones and you are free to go anywhere that Pete and Joe can take you. 
Quote
Use Zones
Front Country Zone is defined as those lands within approximately one-quarter mile either side of the designated 2WD roads. All street legal and licensed vehicles are permitted in this zone. Overnight use may occur only at designated locations.
Primitive Road Zone is defined as lands within one-quarter mile either side of designated 4WD or 2WD high clearance roads. Motorized vehicle access to this zone is restricted to street legal and licensed vehicles and must have at least four functional wheels. Overnight use may occur only at designated campsites.
Backcountry Zones are defined as lands that are more than one-quarter mile from publicly accessible roads. Twenty separate zones have been defined. Only non-motorized travel is permitted. Visitors are encouraged, though not required, to use designated trails and routes until they are knowledgeable and confident in their familiarity with the park to travel

The public use plan for BBRSP lists the zones.  It's somewhere out on the net or on this board.



Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: presidio on December 11, 2007, 07:41:53 PM
I understand, though, from several different sources that you can't do this one without a state-approved guide.

I'm wondering what part of 'public land' the state doesn't understand? Let's see, they allow you to access lands paid for with your tax money ONLY if you fork over a ransom of personal funds to a private company to lead you in there? Is this situation just a little funny sounding to me, or is there something fundamentally wrong with the management mindset that thinks this is okay and allows it to occur? Makes that $20 to get into Big Bend almost, but not quite, seem fair by comparison.

It's probably just me.
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: sleepy on December 11, 2007, 09:46:09 PM
you, presido, i like.  we need to put the pub back in public.  i am so damned incensed that there is no public land in Texas I could start a revolution.


Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: dave2 on December 12, 2007, 03:59:53 PM
I've always wondered why "THEY" are so protective of this location.  I mean, what exactly do they think the public can do to harm what is really just a big depression in the earth?
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: presidio on December 12, 2007, 04:09:41 PM
I've always wondered why "THEY" are so protective of this location.  I mean, what exactly do they think the public can do to harm what is really just a big depression in the earth?

Well, it's probably that if you go in there unescorted, you might accidentally stumble across one of the secret entrances to a vast, nationwide system of tunnels (shhhhh.....). This entrance is SO secret that it's not even listed at the website telling you about the secret.... http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicunder.html

Now, back to reality....there isn't a thing you can hurt out there. It's the idea that it's a 'park' and the public needs to 'be controlled'.
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: RichardM on December 12, 2007, 04:31:28 PM
I've always wondered why "THEY" are so protective of this location.  I mean, what exactly do they think the public can do to harm what is really just a big depression in the earth?
My guess is that they've been more concerned with avoiding rescue operations while understaffed.  It's not so much the park they're looking to protect, they just haven't felt we can be trusted to stay out of trouble since they haven't had the manpower to come bail us out.
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: presidio on December 12, 2007, 04:40:47 PM
[they just haven't felt we can be trusted to stay out of trouble

That's a poor excuse, but one that is endemic to 'parks' at any level of government. It's also why I talk about other public land so much. None of the other agencies feel compelled to worry one whit about you; you're on your own and free to go where you want, not where they let you.
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: randell on December 12, 2007, 04:46:08 PM
My guess is that they've been more concerned with avoiding rescue operations while understaffed.  It's not so much the park they're looking to protect, they just haven't felt we can be trusted to stay out of trouble since they haven't had the manpower to come bail us out.

When I was there last November the rangers failed to give me proper directions/maps and/or gave me different stories depending on who I asked for a bike trail route.  As a result, my friend and I went on a double-length mountain biking trip and wound up biking the last few miles back to HQ in the dark.  My wife became worried because I didn't show up on time, so she told the rangers.  She said they were "excited" at the prospect of a rescue operation.
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: RichardM on December 12, 2007, 04:48:01 PM
In the case of BBRSP, the land the TPWD was given was bigger and wilder than anything else they had in their inventory and they just plain didn't know how to handle it or what to do with it.  Or at least it sure seems that way.
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: Mrscookie on December 14, 2007, 05:56:20 AM
My wife and I have done over 2 years of volunteer work at Big Bend Ranch State Park.  We have had, even very experinced hikers get lost out there and get in trouble.  Where the guides take you is some of the wildest, most remote parts of the park and they know the country better than most of the park employees.  The park is there reason for being there and they will be able to show you it the way no one else can and you are paying for there knowledge and making sure you don't kill yourself out there. They know what they are doing and do it well, and are always fair in their charges.
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: Ay Chihuahua! on December 14, 2007, 09:44:35 AM
My wife and I have done over 2 years of volunteer work at Big Bend Ranch State Park.  We have had, even very experinced hikers get lost out there and get in trouble.  Where the guides take you is some of the wildest, most remote parts of the park and they know the country better than most of the park employees.  The park is there reason for being there and they will be able to show you it the way no one else can and you are paying for there knowledge and making sure you don't kill yourself out there. They know what they are doing and do it well, and are always fair in their charges.
You choose this topic for your first post?  Hmm... :eusa_think: Do you work for or own a guide service?  Or do you just shill for them?

$600 is a ridiculous waste of money for anyone who knows how to read a map and ask a ranger a few questions.

On the other hand, I know that some folks have more money than time, and I can understand that.
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: xseption on December 14, 2007, 09:51:05 AM

$600 is a ridiculous waste of money for anyone who knows how to read a map and ask a ranger a few questions.

On the other hand, I know that some folks have more money than time, and I can understand that.


That might be the point. $600 is a lot for the likes of me and you, yet $600 might be a drop in the bucket for others. If it was expensive, I might be willing to pay for a guide who knows what they are a bout and can help me achieve my objectives. In fact, I might be able to learn enough such that a guide would be superfluous.

~ edd
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: randell on December 14, 2007, 09:56:46 AM
My wife and I have done over 2 years of volunteer work at Big Bend Ranch State Park.  We have had, even very experinced hikers get lost out there and get in trouble.  Where the guides take you is some of the wildest, most remote parts of the park and they know the country better than most of the park employees.  The park is there reason for being there and they will be able to show you it the way no one else can and you are paying for there knowledge and making sure you don't kill yourself out there. They know what they are doing and do it well, and are always fair in their charges.
You choose this topic for your first post?  Hmm... :eusa_think: Do you work for or own a guide service?  Or do you just shill for them?

$600 is a ridiculous waste of money for anyone who knows how to read a map and ask a ranger a few questions.

On the other hand, I know that some folks have more money than time, and I can understand that.

I just paid the dishwasher repairman $85 to push two buttons three times and fix my washer.  He said it was 5 cents to push the buttons and $84.95 for knowing which buttons to push. 
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: RichardM on December 14, 2007, 10:11:11 AM
My wife and I have done over 2 years of volunteer work at Big Bend Ranch State Park.  We have had, even very experinced hikers get lost out there and get in trouble.  Where the guides take you is some of the wildest, most remote parts of the park and they know the country better than most of the park employees.  The park is there reason for being there and they will be able to show you it the way no one else can and you are paying for there knowledge and making sure you don't kill yourself out there. They know what they are doing and do it well, and are always fair in their charges.
You choose this topic for your first post?  Hmm... :eusa_think: Do you work for or own a guide service?  Or do you just shill for them?

$600 is a ridiculous waste of money for anyone who knows how to read a map and ask a ranger a few questions.

On the other hand, I know that some folks have more money than time, and I can understand that.
I just paid the dishwasher repairman $85 to push two buttons three times and fix my washer.  He said it was 5 cents to push the buttons and $84.95 for knowing which buttons to push. 
My Mom had a similar experience over Thanksgiving with her furnace and the circuit breaker.  Remember to cycle the breaker in question rather than just making sure it's "on", because as they get older the spring often isn't strong enough to pop them all the way open.  Both my Mom and older brother had checked it before calling out the service dude.  :icon_redface:

Anyway, welcome to the board Mrscookie.  Don't let the negative responses keep you away.  As you can guess, public access to public lands is kind of a hot button for some of us here.
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: Ay Chihuahua! on December 14, 2007, 10:18:58 AM
$85 to fix an appliance sounds reasonable. 

$600 per person with 4 person minimum?  Not so reasonable.

Mrscookie,  I may be a little grouchy this morning.  Sorry if I've cast false accusations.

Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: okiehiker on December 14, 2007, 10:58:13 AM
$600/person...

Private expeditions are expensive to put together. 

I will admit, I can do a trip a LOT cheaper.  In two weeks I will be taking a group of 15 people from Oklahoma to Balmorhea SP, to work in an orphanage in Ojinaga, Chi., Mexico for three and a half days, over to BIBE to hike, climb, camp and hang out at the hot springs, and then back to Oklahoma. 

The total cost per person is $100.  This is a more expensive undertaking than the Solitario hike to put together.  There is nearly 2,000 miles of travel and the cost of supplies for the work project and it is seven days not four. 

BUT leading this trip is not my profession at the present time (it has been in the past...) AND my salary simply is being paid by my employer who supports me leading a mission trip. 

So... if Bonnie, our volunteer cook were being paid $100/day for her time.  And I as the leader were being paid $200/day for my time (less than I make in my professional life...)  And I charged people for something more than just the cost of gas for travel. And I fed people something more than just the simplest, cheapest food we can come up with as it is a mission trip...  And I charged for overhead, and the fact that I could only be in the field half the time because I have to put effort into recruiting and organizing these trips... in other words, if this were a business... what would I charge for 13 paying participants??

Travel--$2,000, Staff--$2,500, Food and Supplies  $1,500, Insurance--$500, Overhead--$1,000
$7,500   About $575/person...

Now... if I didn't have to pay for travel... and it were only 4 days... it would be cheaper...

BUT... if I only had four customers... it would be more expensive...

If this were my business I could only significantly beat their price if I were single or independently wealthy. 
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: xseption on December 14, 2007, 11:22:43 AM
$600/person...

Private expeditions are expensive to put together. 

I will admit, I can do a trip a LOT cheaper.  In two weeks I will be taking a group of 15 people from Oklahoma to Balmorhea SP, to work in an orphanage in Ojinaga, Chi., Mexico for three and a half days, over to BIBE to hike, climb, camp and hang out at the hot springs, and then back to Oklahoma. 

The total cost per person is $100.  This is a more expensive undertaking than the Solitario hike to put together.  There is nearly 2,000 miles of travel and the cost of supplies for the work project and it is seven days not four. 

BUT leading this trip is not my profession at the present time (it has been in the past...) AND my salary simply is being paid by my employer who supports me leading a mission trip. 

So... if Bonnie, our volunteer cook were being paid $100/day for her time.  And I as the leader were being paid $200/day for my time (less than I make in my professional life...)  And I charged people for something more than just the cost of gas for travel. And I fed people something more than just the simplest, cheapest food we can come up with as it is a mission trip...  And I charged for overhead, and the fact that I could only be in the field half the time because I have to put effort into recruiting and organizing these trips... in other words, if this were a business... what would I charge for 13 paying participants??

Travel--$2,000, Staff--$2,500, Food and Supplies  $1,500, Insurance--$500, Overhead--$1,000
$7,500   About $575/person...

Now... if I didn't have to pay for travel... and it were only 4 days... it would be cheaper...

BUT... if I only had four customers... it would be more expensive...

If this were my business I could only significantly beat their price if I were single or independently wealthy. 

Thanks for the analysis! That is an eye-opener ...

~ edd
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: Ay Chihuahua! on December 14, 2007, 11:52:22 AM
Quote
Travel--$2,000, Staff--$2,500, Food and Supplies  $1,500, Insurance--$500, Overhead--$1,000
$7,500   About $575/person...
My guess is this group is not arranging travel.  I don't see why extra staffing needs would be required.  Its just a guide and 4 customers, right?  There is no way that food and supplies would run $2500 for 4 people, unless they're eating kobe and drinking Dom.  Insurance for your business is not going to run you $500 per trip.  What overhead?

Don't want to be a doubter, but I guess I am.

Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: SHANEA on December 14, 2007, 12:43:07 PM
Ah, let's not forget that TPWD needs their cut out of this.

I'm willing to "bet" that there is a fee associated with being a expedition leader out there and there are also insurance requirements, certification requirements (first aid, etc.), etc. etc. etc.

I looked into becoming an 'expedition leader" out there several years ago.  I was trying to "short cut" the process so that I could gain admission into the inner reaches of the park.  After finding out the requirements, training required, TPWD mandated classes, etc. - no thanks.
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: Ay Chihuahua! on December 14, 2007, 01:00:58 PM
Shane, you're probably right on this, but still....  Those dollar figures seem high to me.
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: 01ACRViper on December 14, 2007, 01:17:08 PM
well, it's like the people that pay hundreds of dollars to be driven around the national park in the back of a jeep, which anybody can do on their own. they feel like paying to be guided and taken care of, and if you have the money, you're going to go for it.

they may not have been able to do something like this w/out a guide, and this is their only opportunity.

there is no way i'd ever pay for something like this, but i can see why other people might. as long as their trip doesn't get in the way of mine, more power to you  :beer_chug:

the notable exception where a guide is OK is Everest/K2  :icon_redface:
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: SHANEA on December 14, 2007, 01:17:21 PM
Shane, you're probably right on this, but still....  Those dollar figures seem high to me.

Plus, let's face it, the tour group running it has to make a normal profit too.  Especially since the area that they reside in has a steep cost of living associated with it.  The view might be worth $35,000 a year, but, the view doesn't pay the bills.

Now, would I pay that for the trip?  Not in my current financial health, but I did pay $90 some odd dollars to go see the waterfall at BBRSP - to ride in a busted up Suburban.  That was $90 each and didn't include meals or anything.  Just the pleasure of the rangers company. 
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: badknees on December 14, 2007, 01:35:51 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but most posters on the board seem to be do it your-selfers. Can't see any BIBECahat renegades paying $600. Part of the fun is in the discovery.



 :vomit: (I wanted to try this one)

Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: Ay Chihuahua! on December 14, 2007, 01:43:48 PM
You are all just shills for the backpacking guide industry!!  :willynilly:
I should have know better!  :eusa_doh:

Just kidding.  I've probably lost this argument, so I will just slink away now.  But rest assured, I will be back to argue some other pointless issue.  You have been warned.
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: okiehiker on December 14, 2007, 01:54:56 PM
Almost everyone here is.  I ran a camp in Colorado for 11 years.  For several years I led more Sierra Club National Outings than anyone else in the country.  I ran them more cheaply than anyone else in the club.  In 1995 I was able to purchase a general liability policy in the amount of $1,000,000 for my operation for just over $2,000 for the season.  I doubt that I could touch my old coverage for $10,000 in today's environment.  Few companies write for out-fitters and those that do have mostly fairly major clients.  

No one I know (I am sure there are many out there... I just have not worked with them... and desert sports might be such an outfitter ... I do not know) would send a group into the field without an assistant leader.  It is simply too hazardous.  The odds of going through a season in this business without an injury are essentially ZERO.  Then you either leave people to evacuate their own injured and stay with the group, leave the group and attend to the injured or abort the trip.  These are all very bad ideas.  

I hate our CYA-driven society, but it is the one in which we live.  

Putting together my own happy-little-BIBE-based-small-group-hiking-only-one-staff business model, I come up with a need to lead 35 groups a year to pay myself $15,000 a year less than I am making now.  That means I have to get a group to sign up every single week from September 15 to May 15 every year.  That assumes no accidents, no refunds, no margin for error.  It is a business which is wonderful in its opportunity to meet people and expose them to new and exciting things.  It is the world's greatest work environment, keeping you healthy and (presumably) doing something you love.

It is a tough-as-hell way to make living however.
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: STARLITDARKNESS3 on December 14, 2007, 02:20:52 PM
You are all just shills for the backpacking guide industry!!  :willynilly:
I should have know better!  :eusa_doh:

Just kidding.  I've probably lost this argument, so I will just slink away now.  But rest assured, I will be back to argue some other pointless issue.  You have been warned.


If you want to argue some pointless issue, pm xseption.   :rolling:   :eusa_angel:   just kidding.
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: SHANEA on December 14, 2007, 03:00:14 PM
You are all just shills for the backpacking guide industry!!  :willynilly:
I should have know better!  :eusa_doh:

Just kidding.  I've probably lost this argument, so I will just slink away now.  But rest assured, I will be back to argue some other pointless issue.  You have been warned.


If you want to argue some pointless issue, pm xseption.   :rolling:   :eusa_angel:   just kidding.


I've been waiting to use this...

 :offtopic:

 :eusa_angel:
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: okiehiker on December 14, 2007, 03:03:22 PM
I am not advocating paying $600 to take a backpacking trip, though even the Sierra Club charges as much now...

http://www.sierraclub.org/outings/national/brochure/08455A.asp

note the Chisos natural history trip offered by a non-profit with a volunteer guide is $745!  (just over $100/day)  Commerical trips are going to run you more ($125 to $200/day) as one might expect.  

Costs are real and people deserve to make a living.  The last thing you want is some squirrely (sp?) untrained guide taking your life in his/her hands, especially if you are inexperienced.  There are plenty of hotels in New York that would take your $745 for one night!  (There might even be place at Lajitas that would do the same!)
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: xseption on December 14, 2007, 03:06:26 PM

If you want to argue some pointless issue, pm xseption.   :rolling:   :eusa_angel:   just kidding.


You had better be! :pissed:

hah!

I do not argue pointless issues. I always have a point!

~ edd
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: SHANEA on December 14, 2007, 03:33:24 PM
(There might even be place at Lajitas that would do the same!)

It's still up and running, at least the website is...

 :offtopic:
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: toejam on December 16, 2007, 09:13:00 AM
I've paid $805 to be guided to the top of Mt. Rainier to fulfill a life-long dream. I'll prolly spend around $5000 to see the Solitario, that money going mostly into a well-used 4x4 so I can drive myself in there.

The $600 seems high if you do a lot of minimalist backpacking like I do and Ay Chi prolly does. But it doesn't seem nearly as outrageous as the price of a ride back to your car when floating the Rio Grande.

This is one of the most fun deteriorating threads I've seen on this site.
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: Ay Chihuahua! on December 16, 2007, 09:57:20 AM
Well...I've slinked back.  Okiehiker,  I follow you on some of your points.  The insurance portion of overhead has me a little perplexed.  Why does a guide really need a million dollars of coverage?  Is that what the courts or ins. cos. have come up with for the average cost of a life?  It seems like you could incorporate yourself, lower your coverage, and in the process, make yourself less of a plaintiff's target.  Just hypothesizing here...I don't know, but a million dollar insurance policy is worth going after from a trial lawyer's point of view...100K, not so much.

To further hypothesize, what if you ditched the extra guide and just got yourself a satelite phone?  Seems to me that one guide well versed in keeping a hurt person stable could use a sat. ph. to call in the calvary, if something really bad happened.  Just think'n out loud here.

I'm curious, because I have thought about starting a similar type of service.  Not so much a guide service, but similar. 

Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: Undertaker on December 16, 2007, 02:48:43 PM
My 2 cents of the $600 deal, cheap, travelling to and from Houston area and your fuel alone is HIGH  :rolling: Actually fees are cheap I have paid more on lots of occasions. Not everyone is experienced in camping, backpacking and survival. I believe in an open park to everyone, that said, what is more natural than someone becoming lost dying and reverting to the dust from whence they came. With regards to Gov cost, how about the fee to visit Johnson Space Center, all paid for by your tax dollars. If you like free Gov health care cradle to grave, remember our POST OFFICE  :rolling: Since most folks I ever looked for during my time with Pima County SAR, almost none had filed a hike plan or notified anyone were they were going and when they were due back. SAR cost considerable money even when via volunteer search teams. Myself and most of you guys/gals go to the wilderness to get away from civilization, (never had a gun fired at me in any national park, have been robbed twice in civilization), when in the wild you need to protect yourself be prepared, any injury no matter how small in the BiBi area and you are hours away from any Hospital. It is a risk you take when in the wild. Let the folks spend their money how they want, you guys are starting to sound like Big Brother. Ok off my soapbox. Back to fun. :eusa_dance:
Title: Re: Solitario in Winter
Post by: fesser nohair on December 23, 2007, 05:24:04 PM
Update!  I've enjoyed the give and take, and generated one more participant.  Three down, one to go.  We need one more to make up the four person minimum (maximum eight).  Surely there's one more person out there who wants to a guided tour of the Solatario in early February!  Go ahead, make my day.

Fesser