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12V Microwave Oven!

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Offline RichardM

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Re: 12V Microwave Oven!
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2009, 11:35:24 AM »
I decided to try out the BIBE email contact to see if they could clear things up.

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Q: On your backcountry primitive roadside camping page you state that generators are not allowed. On the campground page you state that idling a vehicle to generate power is considered to be the same as using a generator. Does this mean than idling a vehicle for power generation at a primitive backcountry site is also prohibited? The Superintendent's Compendium does not mention generator usage in the backcountry camping section, only in the frontcountry camping section.

A: You are correct in your statement that idling a vehicle is the same as generating power.

As far as the "no generators" in the backcountry, we are actually looking into that.  That regulation used to be in the Superintendent's compendium, and a couple of people are checking on whether the Backcountry Management Plan includes the regulation or not.  Much of Big Bend National Park is under protection as a proposed wilderness area [proposed but not designated as such], which would prohibit generator use, but we are checking on this.

Thank you for noticing this.  I will get back to you as soon as I have a definitive answer.

So, things may change....

Followup note from 8/20/09: The Backcountry Management plan is under review, including the issue of generator usage, but it will probably be a year or so before any possible changes are made. Until then, generators (including idling vehicles to generate power) are not allowed in the backcountry.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 10:42:55 AM by RichardM »

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Offline Al

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Re: 12V Microwave Oven!
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2009, 11:52:13 AM »
I decided to try out the BIBE email contact to see if they could clear things up.

Quote
Q: On your backcountry primitive roadside camping page you state that generators are not allowed. On the campground page you state that idling a vehicle to generate power is considered to be the same as using a generator. Does this mean than idling a vehicle for power generation at a primitive backcountry site is also prohibited? The Superintendent's Compendium does not mention generator usage in the backcountry camping section, only in the frontcountry camping section.

A: You are correct in your statement that idling a vehicle is the same as generating power.

As far as the "no generators" in the backcountry, we are actually looking into that.  That regulation used to be in the Superintendent's compendium, and a couple of people are checking on whether the Backcountry Management Plan includes the regulation or not.  Much of Big Bend National Park is under protection as a proposed wilderness area [proposed but not designated as such], which would prohibit generator use, but we are checking on this.

Thank you for noticing this.  I will get back to you as soon as I have a definitive answer.

So, things may change....

Great.  Then we will have to ban all vehicles in the back country since it is impossible to drive a vehicle into the back country without having idled it for some period of time.  I always warm my vehicle up a few minutes by idling when it's cold.  Makes the engine last longer.

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Offline RichardM

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Re: 12V Microwave Oven!
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2009, 12:30:21 PM »
And just to prolong the arguments until Presidio shows up to whine about the NPS...
Idling Myths:

Myth #1: "The engine should be warmed up for long periods prior to driving."

Reality: Idling is not an effective way to warm up your engine, even in cold weather. The best way to do this is to drive the vehicle. With today's modern engines, you need no more than 30 seconds of idling on winter days before starting to drive.

Myth #2: "Idling is good for the engine."

Reality: Excessive idling can actually damage engine components, including cylinders, spark plugs, and the exhaust system.

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Offline Al

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Re: 12V Microwave Oven!
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2009, 01:18:11 PM »
Don't trust those environmental types.  Their agenda is hardly objective!

Al

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Offline presidio

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Re: 12V Microwave Oven!
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2009, 06:55:14 PM »
I don't claim to be an electronic expert, but those inverters don't allow for a whole lot of amps.   Using a regular microwave with an inverter will likely blow a fuse.

Not those little plug-in inverters, but if you get an adequately sized RV model and have enough battery capacity, you can run a household model.
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--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline presidio

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Re: 12V Microwave Oven!
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2009, 07:29:16 PM »
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A: You are correct in your statement that idling a vehicle is the same as generating power.

As far as the "no generators" in the backcountry, we are actually looking into that. &nbsp;That regulation used to be in the Superintendent's compendium, and a couple of people are checking on whether the Backcountry Management Plan includes the regulation or not. &nbsp;Much of Big Bend National Park is under protection as a proposed wilderness area [proposed but not designated as such], which would prohibit generator use, but we are checking on this.


This is just pure horse hockey. 'Proposed' wilderness may be managed like wilderness, but there is no way the wilderness regulations apply. Look it up. Better yet, have the NPS look it up, they're the ones that have the problem understanding things. Of course, this doesn't prevent them from including all sorts of idiotic rules in the compendium, as there already is an abundance of examples contained therein, so they put it there to compensate for the fact that the wilderness act doesn't give them the ability to do it via that avenue. And....even if there was an actual wilderness ever designated (don't hold your breath, they've been hanging on this eventuality for decades with no action), any place you could drive a vehicle....along the wilderness boundary or on roads jutting into the wilderness IS NOT wilderness. If it was, you'd not be able to drive there.

As to the comment in another post that enforcement would only happen if someone complained, you will be disabused of that notion when an overzealous ranger takes you to task. While one would hope some discretion and common sense would be applied, don't count on it; those commodities are in awfully short supply in NPS areas. Keep in mind the rule does not include a 'complaint' trigger, just a prohibition.

The pathetic part? Quality generators are so well insulated that you'd be hard pressed to hear one very far away in the backcountry, and the sort of person who is camping out there is not likely to be worried about what someone else is doing in their campsite down the road, but the NPS is VERY concerned; they lie awake at night worrying about what you MIGHT be doing that they haven't yet considered and prohibited.

This is a great example of a rule that might have made some sense in the era of generators that sounded like lawnmowers, or in jammed campgrounds (since you can't camp just anywhere), but which technology has superseded. However, NPS rules, once instituted almost never are revised downward or abolished.

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Great.  Then we will have to ban all vehicles in the back country since it is impossible to drive a vehicle into the back country without having idled it for some period of time.

Yep. I wonder how the NPS will get out there to find the violators? They should lead by example.
_____________
<  presidio  >
_____________
Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline Pedreo233

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Re: 12V Microwave Oven!
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2009, 08:37:01 PM »
 I always warm my vehicle up a few minutes by idling when it's cold.  Makes the engine last longer.
[/quote]

But you are not warming up the engine to "generate power" so taken in context, you are fine!  Likewise, idling would not be illegal unless it were to generate power.  I frequently pull off the road to talk on the phone and let the engine idle.

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Offline Pedreo233

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Re: 12V Microwave Oven!
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2009, 08:48:05 PM »
I decided to try out the BIBE email contact to see if they could clear things up.

Quote
Q: On your backcountry primitive roadside camping page you state that generators are not allowed. On the campground page you state that idling a vehicle to generate power is considered to be the same as using a generator. Does this mean than idling a vehicle for power generation at a primitive backcountry site is also prohibited? The Superintendent's Compendium does not mention generator usage in the backcountry camping section, only in the frontcountry camping section.

A: You are correct in your statement that idling a vehicle is the same as generating power.

As far as the "no generators" in the backcountry, we are actually looking into that. &nbsp;That regulation used to be in the Superintendent's compendium, and a couple of people are checking on whether the Backcountry Management Plan includes the regulation or not. &nbsp;Much of Big Bend National Park is under protection as a proposed wilderness area [proposed but not designated as such], which would prohibit generator use, but we are checking on this.

Thank you for noticing this. &nbsp;I will get back to you as soon as I have a definitive answer.

So, things may change....

I expect your request was well intended, but you know that the reflex answer would be to say no.  Now, for certain, they will find a way to prove it or emphasize it.  Good luck.

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Offline Pedreo233

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Re: 12V Microwave Oven!
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2009, 08:56:09 PM »
And just to prolong the arguments until Presidio shows up to whine about the NPS...
Idling Myths:

Myth #1: "The engine should be warmed up for long periods prior to driving."

Reality: Idling is not an effective way to warm up your engine, even in cold weather. The best way to do this is to drive the vehicle. With today's modern engines, you need no more than 30 seconds of idling on winter days before starting to drive.

Myth #2: "Idling is good for the engine."

Reality: Excessive idling can actually damage engine components, including cylinders, spark plugs, and the exhaust system.

I would suggest to watch the oil pressure guage, let it come to full pressure, then let it sit for a minute to be sure lubrication is well distributed before putting under load.  Running a poorly lubricated engine is not good.  I think that is why they say wait 30 secs.  What is harder on an engine is idling at temperature in the heat like stuck on the freeway in summer. 

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Offline Al

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Re: 12V Microwave Oven!
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2009, 09:08:58 PM »
I decided to try out the BIBE email contact to see if they could clear things up.

Quote
Q: On your backcountry primitive roadside camping page you state that generators are not allowed. On the campground page you state that idling a vehicle to generate power is considered to be the same as using a generator. Does this mean than idling a vehicle for power generation at a primitive backcountry site is also prohibited? The Superintendent's Compendium does not mention generator usage in the backcountry camping section, only in the frontcountry camping section.

A: You are correct in your statement that idling a vehicle is the same as generating power.

As far as the "no generators" in the backcountry, we are actually looking into that. &nbsp;That regulation used to be in the Superintendent's compendium, and a couple of people are checking on whether the Backcountry Management Plan includes the regulation or not. &nbsp;Much of Big Bend National Park is under protection as a proposed wilderness area [proposed but not designated as such], which would prohibit generator use, but we are checking on this.

Thank you for noticing this. &nbsp;I will get back to you as soon as I have a definitive answer.

So, things may change....

I expect your request was well intended, but you know that the reflex answer would be to say no. &nbsp;Now, for certain, they will find a way to prove it or emphasize it. &nbsp;Good luck.

That response in sum says nothing except the writer's desire to regulate others.&nbsp; "You are correct in your statement that idling a vehicle is the same as generating power." DUH, what's the definition of an engine?

Please note the careful wording. &nbsp;They did not say idling a vehicle is the same as running a generator.

If park management had a lick of sense they would REQUIRE you to idle your engine for 20 minutes every couple of days at the same back country site to make sure you didn't run your battery down and risk being stranded in the desert. &nbsp;I can't wait for the definitive answer.

Al
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 09:30:38 PM by Al »

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Offline Roy

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Re: 12V Microwave Oven!
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2009, 11:37:09 PM »
Trying to think of a way to say this without coming off as over-the-top (again);  not sure it can be done.

Quote (from "The Big Chill"):  Rationalizations are more important than sex.

You guys want to run your engines to generate power in the back country;  and you rationalize that it should be OK because driving is allowed in the back country.  Driving's necessary to access the back country (for 99% of us), power generation isn't.  And the more of these 12V gizmos hit the market, the more people will run their engines to generate power for them.  So I draw my line here.  Leave the gizmos at home.  (As I'm typing,  there's a commercial on TV for a portable Honda generator that's "perfect for camping").

Technology produces this stuff, but it also produces solutions that don't pollute.  I'm using lights, radios, chargers, etc., that run off solar cells and hand cranks instead of batteries.  Cheaper and cleaner than batteries or gas.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 11:39:21 PM by Roy »

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Offline Al

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Re: 12V Microwave Oven!
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2009, 11:44:36 PM »
Trying to think of a way to say this without coming off as over-the-top (again);  not sure it can be done.

Quote (from "The Big Chill"):  Rationalizations are more important than sex.

You guys want to run your engines to generate power in the back country;  and you rationalize that it should be OK because driving is allowed in the back country.  Driving's necessary to access the back country (for 99% of us), power generation isn't.  And the more of these 12V gizmos hit the market, the more people will run their engines to generate power for them.  So I draw my line here.  Leave the gizmos at home.  (As I'm typing,  there's a commercial on TV for a portable Honda generator that's "perfect for camping").

Technology produces this stuff, but it also produces solutions that don't pollute.  I'm using lights, radios, chargers, etc., that run off solar cells and hand cranks instead of batteries.  Cheaper and cleaner than batteries or gas.

Roy, fair enough.  And I promise to run I-10 enough under 80 mph while driving to the park in order to save enough gas to justify the few quarts of gas required to occasionally start and idle the truck in the back country.

Al

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Offline RikD

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Re: 12V Microwave Oven!
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2009, 11:55:42 PM »
Here's what every back road camper needs for their non-generator power requirements.&nbsp; They say you can pick one up for less than $100,000!&nbsp; &nbsp;:icon_lol:


« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 12:02:54 AM by RikD »

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Offline Al

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Re: 12V Microwave Oven!
« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2009, 12:12:30 AM »
If only they made that in a convertible so you could sleep under the stars!  Let's see: at a 100,000 dollars and if one uses it, say, a month a year for 10 years that will be only $333.33 a night.  Assume a reasonable resale value at the end of the 10 years so figure $250 a night PLUS, fuel, operating costs, maintenance, etc. What a deal! 

Nah, I'll stick with the ol' F150, loaded with a bunch of stuff, and consume an almost incalculably small amount of energy in comparison, since I need a truck anyway.

Al

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Offline RikD

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Re: 12V Microwave Oven!
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2009, 12:26:31 AM »
Who needs stars, when you have satellite HD hookup on your beefy sized LCD monitor.&nbsp; Here is another of view the unit in all it's glory.

http://www.lancecamper.com/livingthelancelife/brianbrawdy.html

On a windy night out in Juniper Canyon, you could probably have enough juice to run your laptop, lock onto a satellite internet link and write trip reports as they happen - and most importantly of all... make some popcorn in the 12V microwave!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 12:28:51 AM by RikD »

 


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