Garmin maps

[bdann]

I've pretty much talked myself out of buying the eTrex Vista Cx in favor of the Map 60 Csx....but on to maps:

Garmin Mapsource US Topo vs. Garmin Mapsource 24k National Parks.  

Is it worth it to spring for the National Parks CD?  

Also, is the basemap that comes installed on the unit good enough for general highway navigation?

[BigBendHiker]

Hi bdann:
Good choice on the 60CSx. I purchased the 60CSx last fall and glad I opted for it even though the initial cost is higher.  I usually keep things for years and years and years....so figured in the long run it would be worth it.

I am using the 100K topo maps (or the ones that cover all of the US and not just the National Parks) and have been pleased. Cannot comment on the base maps, although I understand they have sufficient detail for highway nav.  If you need more detail such as nav in a city, then City Navigator is the way to go.  I purchased City Navigator and loaded those maps and have been pleased with the detail for navigating San Antonio and other cities in the area.  Sure makes it easy to just find an intersection or waypoint and let it navigate you to it!

BBH

[bdann]

I'm just wondering how much more detail you get from the National Park maps.  They seem like a rip off, considering you only get National Parks in 1/3 of the country.

[Roy]

Nationla Geographic makes a set with every park in the system; including the Alaska aned Hawaii.  Resolution is the same as 7.5 maps ( I think).

[WL2]

I'm just wondering how much more detail you get from the National Park maps.  They seem like a rip off, considering you only get National Parks in 1/3 of the country.

They offer a lot more detail.  Eventually you will probably end up with all three map types.  The question is which one you get first and when you add the others.  I suggest getting the 'city select' or whatever they call it today.  This will give you a full street 'routing' GPS and is great around town and when traveling.  Then as the budget permits add the topo or 24k topo.

[bdann]

I'm just wondering how much more detail you get from the National Park maps.  They seem like a rip off, considering you only get National Parks in 1/3 of the country.

They offer a lot more detail.  Eventually you will probably end up with all three map types.  The question is which one you get first and when you add the others.  I suggest getting the 'city select' or whatever they call it today.  This will give you a full street 'routing' GPS and is great around town and when traveling.  Then as the budget permits add the topo or 24k topo.

I'm going to go ahead and get the auto nav kit, which includes a power adapter, friction mount, auto mount, and the city select software.  Going to go ahead and get the Topo USA and hold off on the 24k National Parks software.  
I think that will put me well on the road to GPS addiction.

[BigBendHiker]

I think that will put me well on the road to GPS addiction.

Absolutely.  Please join the rest of us GPS addicts



BBH

[WL2]

Sounds like a good plan to me.

[SHANEA]

I'll defer to WL2 and others on GPS, just make sure that any mapping software you buy can be downloaded to the GPS - some can, some can't.  Stay away from DeLorme is all I can offer.  I have the Garmin GPS mapsource software and Delorme.  DeLorme is a POS.    Let me repeat that - DELORME IS A POS!  I know from experience that DeLorme is a POS.  Won't work with my new GPS's, very expensive, the version I had - they were not "seamless" between the CD's and you had to have the CD's with you to use - just couldn't store them on the hard drive.  I got the entire state for something around $400.  Good for topo maps, pointless since it won't work with my Garmin 60CS.  Got in touch with them and their solution, of course, was to purchase the entire set again.  

Base map is "fair" for on-road driving.  usually have to have the GPS in the "off road" mode as it is always trying to go around Robin Hoods barn in order to get to point B from point A.  

I'd definately get the 60CSX over the Vista.  

BTW - did I mention that DeLorme is a POS?

[badknees]

I also have a Garmin 60CSX and have opted for the homemade version of a Big Bend Topo. It is quite a bit of work to generate a good one but it can be as custom as you like.

Try this link for info:
http://home.cinci.rr.com/creek/garmin.htm

If you want to see what one looks like, check out the gallery section:

http://www.bigbendchat.com/album_pic.php?pic_id=95

[presidio]

you had to have the CD's with you to use - just couldn't store them on the hard drive.  I got the entire state for something around $400.

Several things....

a) When you buy proprietary software like DeLorme, you are stuck with the often considerable limitations of the product....and, the considerable price.

b) If you spent $400 for TX topos then you got ripped off. If you stay with USGS DRG maps and can find them or borrow them, you can freely copy the things since they are in the public domain. Now, if you get them directly from USGS you will have to pay, because they are providing a service, but the maps/files themselves carry no copyright. Spend some time searching the internet and you will find free maps in various places. Sometimes SAR groups are excellent resources. For example, Los Alamos National Lab in NM supports SAR groups by posting, for free, the entire set of USGS topos for NM on their website. Download at will. That's over 2,000 topos. Of course you have to use a program that will handle open source maps...like Fugawi or Oziexplorer. There probably are others and there may be a freeware one if you look hard enough. I use Fugawi and it is the king of such programs IMO. Fugawi runs about $100 if you shop hard. That's $300 less than you spent on DeLorme, but of course you have to find the free maps. For $300 I can justify a little search time.

c) Another alternative for digital topos is to find a subscription service that will let you download as many maps as you want for a fixed fee, either monthly or yearly. I found, but have not tried, such a site (don't ask me what it is as I have misplaced the info somewhere...refine your searching skills and let me know what it is). As I recall, they offered unlimited downloads for something like $60/yr. That would be a true bargain on a broadband connection. You'd want a terabyte drive or two for sure.

d) Now, having already recommended above that you stay away from proprietary maps, I will recommend the very proprietary Garmin TopoUSA. It is what you need if you want to do mapping with your GPS and not with your computer (Fugawi is computer-based). IMO you are wasting your money buying the skimpy national park series. Get the full country at 100k. Then, no matter where you may travel you will have maps that exceed the built-in map database. Given that 100k topos change little means you will have good maps in your GPS for a long time. The fact that you can get parks at the 24k resolution is pretty much a big yawn. When you had to carry a paper map, the detail was important. Now that the GPS will show and tell, the scale isn't all that important (I'm sure some will disagree, but I'm speaking here of utility with the machine, not doing the fine navigation with a paper map that you will not do the same way with a GPS). Plus, if you travel with a laptop and use the suggestions above to get digital USGS maps, you can have the 24k version on your computer for planning and such. Besides, running a 24k map on those tiny GPS displays means you're going to be zoomed pretty far out anyway, as the detail at the 24k scale will be fairly useless when at the display equivalent of the paper map. Think not? Take a paper 24k map and cut out the display size of your GPS screen from the center of a blank sheet of paper and slide it around over that map. Can't see much can you? Not usable is it? Try the same thing with your 100k paper map and you will see why I am recommending this approach.

e) Regarding the inability to store DeLorme maps on the hard drive... Actually, the Garmin topo disks will do the same thing to you. If you have the whole country and want to change regions (the install defaults to the Western disk), then the computer will tell you put in the other disk. In fact when you install the Garmin program, there isn't even an option to copy the other disks to the hard drive. NOT A PROBLEM. Nothing prevents you from manually copying the all the disks to your drive. HOWEVER, to get around the built-in loading limitation you are going to have to do surgery. If the thought of editing your Registry terrifies you, then this procedure is not for you. The solution is to search the registry for the Garmin entry that controls the program telling you to put another disk in. You change the pointer from the CD/DVD drive that the installation routine defaulted to, to the location on your hard drive where ALL the maps now reside. You need to preserve the folder scheme from the disks when you copy to the hard drive. It's been awhile since I did this so you will want to search the full Registry as there may be more than one place you have to edit. This tip/trick will most likely also work with DeLorme as that is probably the same routine it is following. Interestingly, if you ask Garmin how to make all the disks available they will tell you it can't be done. I suspect it is because they feel if you don't already know how to accomplish this, then they aren't going to be the ones sending you into the Registry to bungle your computer and then having you blame them when nothing works. Word to the wise, back up your Registry before you do this. It IS possible to make your machine unbootable if you screw something up. Merely editing the Garmin entries will not cause such a problem, but you are mucking about in the guts of the operating system, so you don't want a twitch of the finger doing something unintended. A final caveat: if you really don't understand this, stay out of the Registry.

[WL2]

Just this week I found a workaround for the Garmin TOPO USA that does not require delving into the directory.  Just load all the data on the CD's to some folder and then go to the startup program that was on the TOPO West CD and run it.  It will reload the directory information to point to the folder.

[tjavery]

...e) Regarding the inability to store DeLorme maps on the hard drive... Actually, the Garmin topo disks will do the same thing to you. If you have the whole country and want to change regions (the install defaults to the Western disk), then the computer will tell you put in the other disk. In fact when you install the Garmin program, there isn't even an option to copy the other disks to the hard drive. NOT A PROBLEM. Nothing prevents you from manually copying the all the disks to your drive. HOWEVER, to get around the built-in loading limitation you are going to have to do surgery. If the thought of editing your Registry terrifies you, then this procedure is not for you. The solution is to search the registry for the Garmin entry that controls the program telling you to put another disk in. You change the pointer from the CD/DVD drive that the installation routine defaulted to, to the location on your hard drive where ALL the maps now reside. You need to preserve the folder scheme from the disks when you copy to the hard drive...

Can something similar be done with the National Geographic TOPO! software? It has the same limitation - you must load 12 different disks (for the Texas series) as the programs asks for them. It will only look for one disk at a time, and will not prompt for "browsing" another source.

[presidio]

Can something similar be done with the National Geographic TOPO! software? It has the same limitation - you must load 12 different disks (for the Texas series) as the programs asks for them. It will only look for one disk at a time, and will not prompt for "browsing" another source.

Sure. You will have to look in the Registry to see how it is making calls for the additional disks (or, actually, not making the call). Typically what happens, when programs want you to keep a disk in a drive for access, is that the registry has a value set to make the data call to the CD/DVD drive and not the hard drive. When it cannot find the proper disk in the CD/DVD drive, you get either an error message or a message to insert the missing disk in the drive.

It's not the program making you do this, it's the value stored in the Registry when you installed it (okay, that is the program making you do it...but not because it has artificial intelligence...it's just referencing a coded value that you can modify if you know what to do).

First, determine the directory structure of the disk you have loaded. If nothing else, just copy the entire disk to your hard drive. You may have to test your setup after you get the basic function working to determine whether each disk needs its own folder, or if you can dump all the various disks file into one folder. You only need the data and, if present, the metadata directories. You don't need to copy all the executable stuff that makes the disks run.

Once you have the data on your hard drive, edit your Registry. Search for whatever unique string will produce the settings for your program along with the least hits on things you don't want to see. Typically, try the program name first. Once you find the first (maybe only) instance of what you are looking for, you can then revise your search and start over.

At each point where a call is being made to the CD/DVD drive you would see something like E:\West ('E' being my CD/DVD drive). I modified this to point instead to C:\maps\mapsource\west (this is from my registry mods for the Garmin product). Merely change the drive identifier to your hard drive and modify, if necessary, the folder scheme so it points to the folder with your map data. In my case, I created 4 instances for the four garmin data sets....west, east, alaska and hawaii as I wanted the data separated as it is on the disks. Therefore, I ended up editing quite a few lines to achieve what I wanted. You might find it would work all in one directory. Doesn't cost anything to carefully experiment. If the program IS looking for discrete locations you will find out as soon as you try it. If so, go back and modify the Registry again and move the data to mimic the original disks.

Once done, both the program and you are happy and you can leave those easily damaged disks home.

Here is how you access dangerous territory...the Registry (though I don't see it being all that risky...I go in regularly to tweak things).

Click 'Start', 'Run' type 'regedit'. This will open a windows explorer-like view with a few lines on the left. Don't be fooled. This is just the top level of an obscenely large file, with thousands if not tens of thousands of lines of code. It will take you quite some time to go through it. Don't be in a hurry, at least until you understand what you are doing.

You have to use the search utility; otherwise you will lose your mind trying to find anything. Some of the most arcane codings you have ever seen will come up.

To search, use the normal 'CTRL-F'. Type in your best guess as to a unique identifier. You only need one word and it can be a fragment). I use 'garmin' for mine. It produces way more hits than I need to edit, but it also does not give me anything not related to Garmin. Hit enter and see what happens. Once the search is begun, press F3 to continue with the same search string. Be aware that sometimes it appears as if nothing is happening as it steps though the vast listings without finding anything. Be patient, it will eventually find an entry or tell you the search has been completed. It is not locked up.

You will get a lot of '(default)' hits. They tell you nothing until you open them by clicking. If you don't see a clearly obvious drive path designation, and one that solely relates to your program of interest, hit 'cancel' and move on with F3. You may find that some registry entries contain your program name but do not relate to the issue of loading maps. I can't give you a clear example of this except that my Garmin entries also come up under Fugawi since Fugawi contains Garmin icons. That location does not affect the topo map loading for my GPS.

If you need to revise the search string, cancel the search, move back (manually) to the very top of the Registry and start over. The search will not wrap so you must be at the top to find all instances.

Remember, you should backup the Registry before you begin....and have a means of booting your computer into safe mode should something go awry. Otherwise, you would have no way to restore the Registry. Sounds dire, but as I previously noted, if you are careful and only modify the map pointers, there is no way your machine would be affected. You might have to tweak the registry to refine the map issue, but windows functionality would be unaffected. Rule of thumb: if you make the Registry backup, you will never need it. If you don't, well you know what will happen.

[WL2]

Can something similar be done with the National Geographic TOPO! software? It has the same limitation - you must load 12 different disks (for the Texas series) as the programs asks for them. It will only look for one disk at a time, and will not prompt for "browsing" another source.

Look under 'view' and then 'preferences and settings' and then 'data folders'