WW2-era plane crash sites in GUMO

[Picacho]

A topic on another message board was posted about plane crashes in GUMO.  I wanted to post it here so the info was not buried and lost.  Some of you might find it interesting.  

There are two military plane wrecks in the park, a B-24 and a B-17. The B-24 is located in a remote location off the Bush Mountain Trail in the park's high country. The entire wreck is still at the site. The B-17 is located just above the Pine Springs Campground. There are only the landing gear and some small debris left at the site. I have numerous photos of both wrecks as well as the exact locations, coordinates, and military reports. There is also a B-29 wreck just outside of the park located on the 6 Bar Ranch. I don't know anything about a P-47.

If you are interested in the wrecks in the park, you can contact me directly,

David Bieri
Guadalupe Mountains National Park
HC 60 Box 400
Salt Flat, TX 7984

The B-17 wreck ranger David Bieri of Guadalupe Mountains National Park mentions in his 3/05/06 posting refers to a Boeing-built B-17G Flying Fortress Serial No. 42-31688 which crashed at the 6,115 foot elevation (above the Pine Springs campground) on December 23, 1943 at 10:40 AM.

The aircraft left the Boeing factory in Seattle on December 6, 1943, thereafter being flown to the Denver Modification Center (which I believe was operated by Continental Airlines). It arrived at Roswell AAF on 12/16/1943. The crash occurred 7 days later. The total time on engines and airframe at the time of the crash was 69 hours.

5 out of the 6 men on board were killed: 3 instructors (all Captain rank) and 2 student officers (both 2nd Lieutenant rank) were the fatalities; while one enlisted man (the flight engineer/radio operator) survived. All 5 officers were pilots.

The aircraft originally took off from Roswell AAF that morning around 6 AM with one instructor, 2 enlisted men, and the 2 student officers. It returned to Roswell around 9:15 AM for refueling, at which time one of the enlisted personnel deplaned and 2 more captain-rank instructors came on board.

It departed Roswell again around 9:57 AM and crashed 43 minutes later (in solid clouds) above the Pine Springs campground. Mr. Glover, owner of the Pine Springs Store (which was demolished sometime after I visited the store in 1987 or 1988) witnessed the B-17 flying about 200 feet above the highway go into the cloud base. His witness' statement in the official accident report includes "I saw it turn into the clouds." He said he knew "there was a mountain in there". "I waited for it to crash, which it did."

He and another man scrambled up the mountainside in time to pull the enlisted man (who had been knocked unconscious from the impact) from the wreckage before the first of 3 explosions took place. It seems from his comments in the official report that the wreckage was not yet burning at the time they arrived at the scene.

Glover says in his statement that he and his companion examined the 5 pilots (the 3 instructors in the cockpit, and the 2 student officers who had been ejected from the tail of the aircraft who were lying on the ground some distance from the final resting place/impact point of the aircraft) and determined that all 5 were dead. The man they helped out of the wreckage that day lived another 50+ years and died in San Pedro, CA in the mid-1990s.

I located and spoke to the surviving crewmember by phone in the mid-1980s, but he declined to meet me in person. He did give me some details of the last moments just before the crash (his first awareness was "the sound of rocks scraping against the bottom of the aircraft"), but was hesitant to discuss other details. I felt I had no choice but to respect his wishes and his privacy. I never contacted him again. All he could remember about the location was that it was about 45 miles south of Carlsbad Caverns "not far from the highway".

In my inquiries of local people in the late 1980s, it was surprising to find that no one (including park staff at Pine Springs of whom I inquired) seemed to know anything about a B-17 crash in the area. The operator of the Pine Springs store, a recent arrival to the area, told me she had no knowledge of a WWII crash nearby, but that she had recently purchased the store from Mrs. Glover, the prior owner who ran the store with her husband. The name "Glover" is significant in this accident, as mentioned above, although I did not realize it at the time.

When I returned in 1995, the Pine Springs store was no longer there.

Incidentally, there is a .50 caliber machine gun from a B-17 on display in the Carlsbad museum in town, but it is apparently not from this B-17, but rather from an earlier B-17 crash that went undiscovered for several months (the former park superintendent told me about that one, which he remembered immediately and at first thought was the crash I was looking into).

All death cerficates for this crash (5 deaths, 1 survivor) were issued out of New Mexico, even though the crash occurred in Texas. The retired park superintendent who I was fortunate to meet in the late 1980s living in Carlsbad and who said he signed every death certificate for a death in the Guadalupes in the previous 50 years felt at first that the crash I was looking for could not have occurred in the Guadalupes, since he would have known about it.

However, sometime later, we spoke again by telephone and he said that after thinking more about it he recalled the crash "where the Army came in and took all the bodies back to Roswell" which is why he didn't get involved in signing any death certificates. Since Roswell AAF was in New Mexico, that is where the death certificates were issued. He said that was also why he didn't have much of a recollection of it at first, since the Army Air Force handled the whole thing from the start and bypassed his involvement entirely. He could not remember where the crash site was.

I spent 20 years trying to locate the exact site, and finally did in 1990, but didn't get to actually visit it until 1992, with the help of a park ranger who led me to the site. It's not a bad hike from the Pine Springs campground to the crash site, but you almost really have to know where it is or you would probably miss it, since you have to practically be right on top of it before you notice the landing gear strut and wheel (the tire was burned off in the fire). Then you'll start to notice the other stuff on the ground all around.

In 1995 I revisited the site to place a memorial plaque on the main landing gear that is still lying on the ground where it came to rest in 1943. Many small pieces of aluminum (evidence of explosion) and examples of puddled molten aluminum (evidence of the instense fire) still lie about the area.

My uncle was one of the 5 pilots (he was a student officer/2nd Lt. ejected from the tail of the B-17) killed in the crash. He was 21 years of age (from Los Angeles, CA) undergoing 4-engine school at Roswell AAF. He had gotten his wings and commission at Marfa, Texas the first week of November, 1943 and had about 3 weeks of B-17 training left at Roswell when he died. I was named for him. The sole survivor indicated to me in our phone conversation that he did not know my uncle, that he had only met him the morning of the accident.

According to the retired park superintendent, the aircraft debris and wreckage was buried by Army personnel some months after the crash to avoid unnecessary searches for missing aircraft, as the wreckage was apparently being reported by passing pilots as a downed aircraft. Part of the tail still sticks out from the ground, so the entire A/C is actually still there, just mostly buried (what was left after the fire and explosions).

I strongly recommend that you DO NOT DIG AT THE SITE: the microfilm photos of the wreck taken on 12/24/1943 reveal loaded .50 caliber machine guns, so there is the possibility that LIVE AMUNITION might still lie in the soil just below the surface. It is not worth the risk of getting yourself killed by a 1943 machine gun bullet if your shovel hits one.

SPECIAL REQUEST: if anyone reading this posting has been to the site, I would appreciate knowing if the memorial plaque I installed to the main landing gear in 1995 is still there. I haven't been back to the site since then. Thanks.

Taken from this thread.

[Picacho]

I guess the title might lead people to believe a plane crashed there recently so perhaps I should have worded the title a little different, maybe old plane crashes or something like that.  Too bad you can't edit after you make a post.

Moderator note:  Well of course you can edit your posts.  See that button that says "edit" when you view your post?  Click it and see what happens.  The "X" button lets you delete a post.  As you may have guessed, I already modified your subject line.

[Don H]

Even with the new title, I still thought when I saw it that a restored WW2 plane had recently crashed in GUMO.

[Picacho]

I seriously don't see an edit button anywhere.  This forum is similar to another one that I have an edit button, but I don't see one here.

[SHANEA]

I seriously don't see an edit button anywhere.  This forum is similar to another one that I have an edit button, but I don't see one here.

It's not an abborition, I can't edit either :oops:

[Picacho]

Maybe it's a feature that has to be turned on for each individual member?

[RichardM]

Maybe it's a feature that has to be turned on for each individual member?

It's not an abborition, I can't edit either :oops:

Send David a PM.  Sounds like he needs to tweak some settings.

[SHANEA]

Sounds like he needs to tweak some settings.

Nah, no need to edit, I never make mistakes.  I once thought I made a mistake, but I was wrong.   :lol:

[SHANEA]

.....It arrived at Roswell AAF on 12/16/1943.....The aircraft originally took off from Roswell AAF that morning around 6 AM....I located and spoke to the surviving crewmember by phone in the mid-1980s, but he declined to meet me in person.....but was hesitant to discuss other details........I never contacted him again......In my inquiries of local people in the late 1980s, it was surprising to find that no one (including park staff at Pine Springs of whom I inquired) seemed to know anything about a B-17 crash in the area. The operator of the Pine Springs store....The name "Glover" is significant in this accident, as mentioned above, although I did not realize it at the time.....When I returned in 1995, the Pine Springs store was no longer there.
...All death cerficates for this crash (5 deaths, 1 survivor) were issued out of New Mexico, even though the crash occurred in Texas. The retired park superintendent who I was fortunate to meet in the late 1980s living in Carlsbad and who said he signed every death certificate for a death in the Guadalupes in the previous 50 years felt at first that the crash I was looking for could not have occurred in the Guadalupes, since he would have known about it......However, sometime later, we spoke again by telephone and he said that after thinking more about it he recalled the crash "where the Army came in and took all the bodies back to Roswell"....it at first, since the Army Air Force handled the whole thing from the start and bypassed his involvement entirely. He could not remember where the crash site was.....I spent 20 years trying to locate the exact site, and finally did in 1990,

Sounds like a typical Government coverup and conspiracy theory to me, just another indication of the One World Government, Trilateral Commission, and the Illuminanti conspiring to keep the obvious secret.

I've made a phone call, and they are on top of it.