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Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.

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Offline dprather

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Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2018, 05:16:41 PM »
I figure border issues vs backcountry camping would be more of a concern w/ the gov. shutdown.  Can't see LEO at the South Rim requiring you to break camp since you don't have a permit.  It's been my experience that backpackers are predominately a responsible leave no trace group.  Seriously doubt a citation would be issued even at the primitive sites.

I have my doubts. It will be interesting to see how it works out.

I'm interested in your gut-level...what/why do you think?
Leave "quit" at the car.  Embrace the trail as your friend.  Expect to enjoy yourself, and to be amazed.

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Offline badknees

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Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2018, 06:42:46 PM »
I figure border issues vs backcountry camping would be more of a concern w/ the gov. shutdown.  Can't see LEO at the South Rim requiring you to break camp since you don't have a permit.  It's been my experience that backpackers are predominately a responsible leave no trace group.  Seriously doubt a citation would be issued even at the primitive sites.

I have my doubts. It will be interesting to see how it works out.

I'm interested in your gut-level...what/why do you think?

I'm thinking that guys working without pay/delayed pay are going to spread the pain. I'm a cynic, so don't pay attention to me.
Not all those who wander are lost.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2018, 07:15:57 PM »
Quote
I'm thinking that guys working without pay/delayed pay are going to spread the pain. I'm a cynic, so don't pay attention to me.

I tend to agree, I don't think they be in any mood to cut people slack for deliberately going into the back country without a permit.

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Offline Al

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Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2018, 07:29:56 PM »
Quote
I'm thinking that guys working without pay/delayed pay are going to spread the pain. I'm a cynic, so don't pay attention to me.

I tend to agree, I don't think they be in any mood to cut people slack for deliberately going into the back country without a permit.

It's not rocket science.  They won't have anything better do.

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Offline dprather

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Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2018, 07:55:14 PM »
CussCussCussCuss
Leave "quit" at the car.  Embrace the trail as your friend.  Expect to enjoy yourself, and to be amazed.

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Offline presidio

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Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2018, 08:17:35 PM »
Quote
I'm thinking that guys working without pay/delayed pay are going to spread the pain. I'm a cynic, so don't pay attention to me.

I tend to agree, I don't think they be in any mood to cut people slack for deliberately going into the back country without a permit.

Arguing the case before a judge would be very interesting. Since the NPS is not physically closing the roads as they foolishly did in 2013, it's clear they aren't enforcing the entry fee requirement. Once they've allowed that variance, it's much harder to uphold other similar requirements, especially when the 'violation' is a use rule as opposed to something physical like damage, speeding, driving off road.

Taking the argument/defense outside the direct purview of the NPS (if they really are foolish enough to write tickets for permit violations) provides for an independent examination of the situation, free of the logic deficit found in the park. Odds are good a judge will see the situation a lot differently than the guy wearing the tight funny hat does.

Of course, this all is conjecture until someone tests the theory. Undoubtedly, the NPS is counting on a fear factor to prevent most from testing the premise.
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Offline badknees

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Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2018, 08:28:47 PM »
Quote
I'm thinking that guys working without pay/delayed pay are going to spread the pain. I'm a cynic, so don't pay attention to me.

I tend to agree, I don't think they be in any mood to cut people slack for deliberately going into the back country without a permit.

Arguing the case before a judge would be very interesting. Since the NPS is not physically closing the roads as they foolishly did in 2013, it's clear they aren't enforcing the entry fee requirement. Once they've allowed that variance, it's much harder to uphold other similar requirements, especially when the 'violation' is a use rule as opposed to something physical like damage, speeding, driving off road.

Taking the argument/defense outside the direct purview of the NPS (if they really are foolish enough to write tickets for permit violations) provides for an independent examination of the situation, free of the logic deficit found in the park. Odds are good a judge will see the situation a lot differently than the guy wearing the tight funny hat does.

Of course, this all is conjecture until someone tests the theory. Undoubtedly, the NPS is counting on a fear factor to prevent most from testing the premise.

Whatever the judge thinks or doesn't think, it will still be a hassle, and yes I'm sure they are counting on that as the intangible barrier.
Not all those who wander are lost.
– J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline Flash

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Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2018, 08:45:02 PM »
Quote
I'm thinking that guys working without pay/delayed pay are going to spread the pain. I'm a cynic, so don't pay attention to me.

I tend to agree, I don't think they be in any mood to cut people slack for deliberately going into the back country without a permit.

It's not rocket science.  They won't have anything better do.
Probably right, bk, it may provide a form of amusement, i.e. tracking down bandit campers. Go to trailheads, discreetly mark the tires, wait 24-hrs, if still there, then write a ticket.

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Offline fc7cuda

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Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2018, 08:46:47 PM »
Will they even really be working or at home? 


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Offline dprather

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Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2018, 08:50:31 PM »
To repeat: cusscusscusscuss
Leave "quit" at the car.  Embrace the trail as your friend.  Expect to enjoy yourself, and to be amazed.

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Offline elhombre

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Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2018, 10:21:47 AM »
Just for giggles, I thought I would interject some "real" $$$ numbers into this:

Total projected govment budget for 2019         $ 4,407,000,000,000     
Amount they are fighting over                             $         5,000,000,000
 
Total % they are fighting over                   .113%


If you are an American with a great job, and have a Take Home pay of $100,000  (after Taxes).     That's a bitch fest over how to spend $113.45.    A dinner for 4 at a real nice Sushi bar.

I would also point out that the money spent on a wall is going to actually purchase something that we all can touch and see.  Unlike the 5 billion that is spent by the Department of Health and Human Services " to address the opioid epidemic".  page 7 https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Addendum-to-the-FY-2019-Budget.pdf
I used this site for the bubget numbers  https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-spending-3305763
I tried to look at the govment site for the budget, but it is 160 pages long, and it is painfully slow to download.  As I waited a minute to try to download it, I wondered if the download speed was throttled back on purpose....     https://www.govinfo.gov/features/budget-fy2019

If my math is wrong, please correct me.  I'm not use to looking at numbers that big.    Merry Christmas!
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Offline fostej15

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Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2018, 10:55:42 AM »
Just for giggles, I thought I would interject some "real" $$$ numbers into this:

Total projected govment budget for 2019         $ 4,407,000,000,000     
Amount they are fighting over                             $         5,000,000,000
 
Total % they are fighting over                   .113%


If you are an American with a great job, and have a Take Home pay of $100,000  (after Taxes).     That's a bitch fest over how to spend $113.45.    A dinner for 4 at a real nice Sushi bar.

I would also point out that the money spent on a wall is going to actually purchase something that we all can touch and see.  Unlike the 5 billion that is spent by the Department of Health and Human Services " to address the opioid epidemic".  page 7 https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Addendum-to-the-FY-2019-Budget.pdf
I used this site for the bubget numbers  https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-spending-3305763
I tried to look at the govment site for the budget, but it is 160 pages long, and it is painfully slow to download.  As I waited a minute to try to download it, I wondered if the download speed was throttled back on purpose....     https://www.govinfo.gov/features/budget-fy2019

If my math is wrong, please correct me.  I'm not use to looking at numbers that big.    Merry Christmas!


Haha that is ridiculous.  My friends and I had been planning a trip to BBNP for months and not we’re not even sure we’re going because of 0.113% of the budget.


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Offline mule ears

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Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2018, 10:57:23 AM »
They are not fighting over the money.  What they are fighting over is a wall (which won't work, isn't needed and is an environmental nightmare) versus other border security measures that do work like improved screening at border crossings, more electronic surveillance and more man power.  Yes it's not much money as far as a government budget goes but it is a big difference in how to approach the problem. 

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Offline presidio

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Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2018, 11:16:18 AM »
Total % they are fighting over                   .113%

If you are an American with a great job, and have a Take Home pay of $100,000  (after Taxes).     That's a bitch fest over how to spend $113.45.

I would also point out that the money spent on a wall is going to actually purchase something that we all can touch and see.

If my math is wrong, please correct me. 

Not wrong, but we here at BBC expect a higher level of accuracy.

It's actually 0.11345586566825504 878602223735%   :cool2:

This will add an extra penny to the $113.45.

As to a wall being touchy and see-y....well, it ranks among the most asinine of political stunts ever (and I am quite conservative with an expectation that immigration laws will be consistently, fairly, firmly and apolitically applied).

The money is far better spent on personnel and technology, and intelligent legislative reform, not yet another example of the demonstrable failures of similar exercises that litter the planet and history.

The numerous video clips of Democrats, who now are in a snit about immigration, previously unequivocally stating their expectations of immigration control in years past, merely show a politically obstructive mindset, with values (if they can be called that)  that u-turn as it suits their objectives. (The offended may now cue the examples of the other party doing the same...).

That in no way excuses the idiocy of the current administration appealing to those of low intellect who have no clue whatsoever about immigration or border issues and who repeatedly demonstrate that the farther one is from the border, and the less factual information they have, the more rabid they are about the topic.

It's all about optics, cheap phraseology, revival chanting and squirrel (see the move Up!) politics. In no way does anyone offer rational, substantive suggestions, much less actual action, to do a thing to solve the issue.

Obstructionists all. (I wanted to say 'morons' but figured that would get the thread locked).

If we would start with ending catch-and-release, institute immediate deportation for those caught illegally crossing the border, and penalize those places/politicians which think they can proclaim sanctuary city/state status...that would be a good start on fixing things.

Once a spine is shown that immigration law will be enforced, much of the problem will begin to self-resolve. It won't happen overnight, and will require immense, dedicated effort, but it will improve.

The ongoing failure of determination to firmly apply immigration controls is a perfect example of the 'broken window' syndrome. All caused by elected folks FAILING to do their jobs (along with some who certainly demonstrate an interest in subverting immigration law and thus do not seem to want any controls) .
_____________
<  presidio  >
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline Al

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Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2018, 01:13:33 PM »
Does anyone know how much wall would be built by the 3.5 billion that is being fought over?  My general understanding is "The Wall" will cost a lot more than that.  I just wish politicians would work off of facts not rhetoric.

 


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