Big Bend Chat

Big Bend National Park Q&A => Hiking the Mountains => Topic started by: RedBuffalo on December 23, 2018, 08:53:33 AM

Title: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: RedBuffalo on December 23, 2018, 08:53:33 AM
BBNP website states park is open 24/7, but no permits will be issued.  What to expect on the primitive drive up sites like Croton Springs?  What would an experienced backpacker expect  in the Chisos Mountains?
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: badknees on December 23, 2018, 08:57:05 AM
BBNP website states park is open 24/7, but no permits will be issued.  What to expect on the primitive drive up sites like Croton Springs?  What would an experienced backpacker expect  in the Chisos Mountains?

To get a citation if you don't have a permit
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: RedBuffalo on December 23, 2018, 08:59:13 AM
If they're not issuing permits reckon they're not issuing citations?
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: badknees on December 23, 2018, 09:04:06 AM
If they're not issuing permits reckon they're not issuing citations?

I'd bet the LE rangers will be working. Kind of like a "speed trap".
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: RedBuffalo on December 23, 2018, 09:12:15 AM
Reckon there's always day hikes...  Basin campground will still have fcfs sites.
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: dprather on December 23, 2018, 09:16:27 AM
OH CRAP.  My schedule accidentally opened up for a half-week in the Bend after Xmas.

You don't mean to tell me that I can get cited if I go into the backcountry????

DANGit.

Does anyone know for sure about all of this?
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: badknees on December 23, 2018, 09:26:31 AM
OH CRAP.  My schedule accidentally opened up for a half-week in the Bend after Xmas.

You don't mean to tell me that I can get cited if I go into the backcountry????

DANGit.

Does anyone know for sure about all of this?

"Permits are required for all backcountry camping.
No additional permits will be issued during the shutdown"

"ALL PARK REGULATIONS REMAIN IN EFFECT
AND WILL BE ENFORCED."

Roll the dice, take your chances
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: RedBuffalo on December 23, 2018, 09:28:08 AM
Here are the details...
https://www.nps.gov/bibe/planyourvisit/government-shutdown.htm
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: presidio on December 23, 2018, 10:11:05 AM
BBNP website states park is open 24/7, but no permits will be issued.  What to expect on the primitive drive up sites like Croton Springs?  What would an experienced backpacker expect  in the Chisos Mountains?

Take the NPS out of the equation and the answer to 'what to expect' would be simple: FREEDOM.

The slightly longer answer would include 'you have to be able to be responsible for yourself.'
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: Flash on December 23, 2018, 10:45:51 AM
Q: If the Park is not requiring entry permits, then how can they require backcountry permits?
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: dprather on December 23, 2018, 12:09:30 PM
Question (from logic and reason, not from federalism): what about entry fees as a parallel

They cannot say the place is open, let you in, and then zap you for not having taped-on window proof that you paid to get in (if they open again before you leave).  All you'd have to do is pay-u when they opened up. 

Wouldn't backcountry permits be the same?   If they are not open enough to give you a permit, will they be open enough to cite you for not having a permit?  Couldn't you just pay-up if they open back up before you leave?

Nobody really knows these answers, do they?
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: MedMoneyCat on December 23, 2018, 01:44:54 PM
What’s the citation and Fine amount for no permit?
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: mule ears on December 23, 2018, 02:19:41 PM
Question (from logic and reason, not from federalism): what about entry fees as a parallel

They cannot say the place is open, let you in, and then zap you for not having taped-on window proof that you paid to get in (if they open again before you leave).  All you'd have to do is pay-u when they opened up. 

Wouldn't backcountry permits be the same?   If they are not open enough to give you a permit, will they be open enough to cite you for not having a permit?  Couldn't you just pay-up if they open back up before you leave?

Nobody really knows these answers, do they?

This would be my line of reasoning too.  They have said the LE rangers and Border Patrol will still be around to "enforce" the regulations but I would not be too worried about it.
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: RedBuffalo on December 23, 2018, 03:30:49 PM
I figure border issues vs backcountry camping would be more of a concern w/ the gov. shutdown.  Can't see LEO at the South Rim requiring you to break camp since you don't have a permit.  It's been my experience that backpackers are predominately a responsible leave no trace group.  Seriously doubt a citation would be issued even at the primitive sites. 
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: badknees on December 23, 2018, 03:42:36 PM
I figure border issues vs backcountry camping would be more of a concern w/ the gov. shutdown.  Can't see LEO at the South Rim requiring you to break camp since you don't have a permit.  It's been my experience that backpackers are predominately a responsible leave no trace group.  Seriously doubt a citation would be issued even at the primitive sites.

I have my doubts. It will be interesting to see how it works out.
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: dprather on December 23, 2018, 05:16:41 PM
I figure border issues vs backcountry camping would be more of a concern w/ the gov. shutdown.  Can't see LEO at the South Rim requiring you to break camp since you don't have a permit.  It's been my experience that backpackers are predominately a responsible leave no trace group.  Seriously doubt a citation would be issued even at the primitive sites.

I have my doubts. It will be interesting to see how it works out.

I'm interested in your gut-level...what/why do you think?
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: badknees on December 23, 2018, 06:42:46 PM
I figure border issues vs backcountry camping would be more of a concern w/ the gov. shutdown.  Can't see LEO at the South Rim requiring you to break camp since you don't have a permit.  It's been my experience that backpackers are predominately a responsible leave no trace group.  Seriously doubt a citation would be issued even at the primitive sites.

I have my doubts. It will be interesting to see how it works out.

I'm interested in your gut-level...what/why do you think?

I'm thinking that guys working without pay/delayed pay are going to spread the pain. I'm a cynic, so don't pay attention to me.
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: Robert on December 23, 2018, 07:15:57 PM
Quote
I'm thinking that guys working without pay/delayed pay are going to spread the pain. I'm a cynic, so don't pay attention to me.

I tend to agree, I don't think they be in any mood to cut people slack for deliberately going into the back country without a permit.
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: Al on December 23, 2018, 07:29:56 PM
Quote
I'm thinking that guys working without pay/delayed pay are going to spread the pain. I'm a cynic, so don't pay attention to me.

I tend to agree, I don't think they be in any mood to cut people slack for deliberately going into the back country without a permit.

It's not rocket science.  They won't have anything better do.
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: dprather on December 23, 2018, 07:55:14 PM
CussCussCussCuss
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: presidio on December 23, 2018, 08:17:35 PM
Quote
I'm thinking that guys working without pay/delayed pay are going to spread the pain. I'm a cynic, so don't pay attention to me.

I tend to agree, I don't think they be in any mood to cut people slack for deliberately going into the back country without a permit.

Arguing the case before a judge would be very interesting. Since the NPS is not physically closing the roads as they foolishly did in 2013, it's clear they aren't enforcing the entry fee requirement. Once they've allowed that variance, it's much harder to uphold other similar requirements, especially when the 'violation' is a use rule as opposed to something physical like damage, speeding, driving off road.

Taking the argument/defense outside the direct purview of the NPS (if they really are foolish enough to write tickets for permit violations) provides for an independent examination of the situation, free of the logic deficit found in the park. Odds are good a judge will see the situation a lot differently than the guy wearing the tight funny hat does.

Of course, this all is conjecture until someone tests the theory. Undoubtedly, the NPS is counting on a fear factor to prevent most from testing the premise.
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: badknees on December 23, 2018, 08:28:47 PM
Quote
I'm thinking that guys working without pay/delayed pay are going to spread the pain. I'm a cynic, so don't pay attention to me.

I tend to agree, I don't think they be in any mood to cut people slack for deliberately going into the back country without a permit.

Arguing the case before a judge would be very interesting. Since the NPS is not physically closing the roads as they foolishly did in 2013, it's clear they aren't enforcing the entry fee requirement. Once they've allowed that variance, it's much harder to uphold other similar requirements, especially when the 'violation' is a use rule as opposed to something physical like damage, speeding, driving off road.

Taking the argument/defense outside the direct purview of the NPS (if they really are foolish enough to write tickets for permit violations) provides for an independent examination of the situation, free of the logic deficit found in the park. Odds are good a judge will see the situation a lot differently than the guy wearing the tight funny hat does.

Of course, this all is conjecture until someone tests the theory. Undoubtedly, the NPS is counting on a fear factor to prevent most from testing the premise.

Whatever the judge thinks or doesn't think, it will still be a hassle, and yes I'm sure they are counting on that as the intangible barrier.
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: Flash on December 23, 2018, 08:45:02 PM
Quote
I'm thinking that guys working without pay/delayed pay are going to spread the pain. I'm a cynic, so don't pay attention to me.

I tend to agree, I don't think they be in any mood to cut people slack for deliberately going into the back country without a permit.

It's not rocket science.  They won't have anything better do.
Probably right, bk, it may provide a form of amusement, i.e. tracking down bandit campers. Go to trailheads, discreetly mark the tires, wait 24-hrs, if still there, then write a ticket.
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: fc7cuda on December 23, 2018, 08:46:47 PM
Will they even really be working or at home? 


Sent from my iPhone using Big Bend Chat (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=88143)
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: dprather on December 23, 2018, 08:50:31 PM
To repeat: cusscusscusscuss
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: elhombre on December 24, 2018, 10:21:47 AM
Just for giggles, I thought I would interject some "real" $$$ numbers into this:

Total projected govment budget for 2019         $ 4,407,000,000,000     
Amount they are fighting over                             $         5,000,000,000
 
Total % they are fighting over                   .113%


If you are an American with a great job, and have a Take Home pay of $100,000  (after Taxes).     That's a bitch fest over how to spend $113.45.    A dinner for 4 at a real nice Sushi bar.

I would also point out that the money spent on a wall is going to actually purchase something that we all can touch and see.  Unlike the 5 billion that is spent by the Department of Health and Human Services " to address the opioid epidemic".  page 7 https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Addendum-to-the-FY-2019-Budget.pdf
I used this site for the bubget numbers  https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-spending-3305763
I tried to look at the govment site for the budget, but it is 160 pages long, and it is painfully slow to download.  As I waited a minute to try to download it, I wondered if the download speed was throttled back on purpose....     https://www.govinfo.gov/features/budget-fy2019

If my math is wrong, please correct me.  I'm not use to looking at numbers that big.    Merry Christmas!
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: fostej15 on December 24, 2018, 10:55:42 AM
Just for giggles, I thought I would interject some "real" $$$ numbers into this:

Total projected govment budget for 2019         $ 4,407,000,000,000     
Amount they are fighting over                             $         5,000,000,000
 
Total % they are fighting over                   .113%


If you are an American with a great job, and have a Take Home pay of $100,000  (after Taxes).     That's a bitch fest over how to spend $113.45.    A dinner for 4 at a real nice Sushi bar.

I would also point out that the money spent on a wall is going to actually purchase something that we all can touch and see.  Unlike the 5 billion that is spent by the Department of Health and Human Services " to address the opioid epidemic".  page 7 https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Addendum-to-the-FY-2019-Budget.pdf
I used this site for the bubget numbers  https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-spending-3305763
I tried to look at the govment site for the budget, but it is 160 pages long, and it is painfully slow to download.  As I waited a minute to try to download it, I wondered if the download speed was throttled back on purpose....     https://www.govinfo.gov/features/budget-fy2019

If my math is wrong, please correct me.  I'm not use to looking at numbers that big.    Merry Christmas!


Haha that is ridiculous.  My friends and I had been planning a trip to BBNP for months and not we’re not even sure we’re going because of 0.113% of the budget.


Sent from my iPhone using Big Bend Chat (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=88143)
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: mule ears on December 24, 2018, 10:57:23 AM
They are not fighting over the money.  What they are fighting over is a wall (which won't work, isn't needed and is an environmental nightmare) versus other border security measures that do work like improved screening at border crossings, more electronic surveillance and more man power.  Yes it's not much money as far as a government budget goes but it is a big difference in how to approach the problem. 

Merry Christmas!
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: presidio on December 24, 2018, 11:16:18 AM
Total % they are fighting over                   .113%

If you are an American with a great job, and have a Take Home pay of $100,000  (after Taxes).     That's a bitch fest over how to spend $113.45.

I would also point out that the money spent on a wall is going to actually purchase something that we all can touch and see.

If my math is wrong, please correct me. 

Not wrong, but we here at BBC expect a higher level of accuracy.

It's actually 0.11345586566825504 878602223735%   :cool2:

This will add an extra penny to the $113.45.

As to a wall being touchy and see-y....well, it ranks among the most asinine of political stunts ever (and I am quite conservative with an expectation that immigration laws will be consistently, fairly, firmly and apolitically applied).

The money is far better spent on personnel and technology, and intelligent legislative reform, not yet another example of the demonstrable failures of similar exercises that litter the planet and history.

The numerous video clips of Democrats, who now are in a snit about immigration, previously unequivocally stating their expectations of immigration control in years past, merely show a politically obstructive mindset, with values (if they can be called that)  that u-turn as it suits their objectives. (The offended may now cue the examples of the other party doing the same...).

That in no way excuses the idiocy of the current administration appealing to those of low intellect who have no clue whatsoever about immigration or border issues and who repeatedly demonstrate that the farther one is from the border, and the less factual information they have, the more rabid they are about the topic.

It's all about optics, cheap phraseology, revival chanting and squirrel (see the move Up!) politics. In no way does anyone offer rational, substantive suggestions, much less actual action, to do a thing to solve the issue.

Obstructionists all. (I wanted to say 'morons' but figured that would get the thread locked).

If we would start with ending catch-and-release, institute immediate deportation for those caught illegally crossing the border, and penalize those places/politicians which think they can proclaim sanctuary city/state status...that would be a good start on fixing things.

Once a spine is shown that immigration law will be enforced, much of the problem will begin to self-resolve. It won't happen overnight, and will require immense, dedicated effort, but it will improve.

The ongoing failure of determination to firmly apply immigration controls is a perfect example of the 'broken window' syndrome. All caused by elected folks FAILING to do their jobs (along with some who certainly demonstrate an interest in subverting immigration law and thus do not seem to want any controls) .
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: Al on December 24, 2018, 01:13:33 PM
Does anyone know how much wall would be built by the 3.5 billion that is being fought over?  My general understanding is "The Wall" will cost a lot more than that.  I just wish politicians would work off of facts not rhetoric.
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: elhombre on December 24, 2018, 02:52:00 PM
The conservative CBS news reports 5 billion.  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/government-funding-bill-passage-now-uncertain-in-the-house/

The ultra conservative NPR reports 5.7  Billion   https://www.npr.org/2018/12/20/678602214/senate-approves-temporary-funding-bill-house-likely-to-act-today-avoiding-shutdo

If it was 3.5 billion, then the shut down fight is only over   .079%  of the total budget.
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: RedBuffalo on December 24, 2018, 02:59:43 PM
My backcountry permit would cost $14 for three nights.  Wonder what a citation for that would go for?  If any, more than likely a warning...  I'm thinking if I were forced to work a shutdown I'd be at my favorite off trail site chilling or fake it and be at home with my family.
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: Quatro on December 24, 2018, 03:24:47 PM
From Politifact:

Cost estimates for the wall vary greatly. Here are some relevant estimates, as chronicled by news publication Quartz.

In July 2016, Bernstein Research, a firm that analyzes material costs, put the price tag at $15 billion to $25 billion, for a wall that stretches 1,000 miles and is 40 feet high, which was Trump’s initial desired height.

In January 2017, Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell said the wall would be $12 billion to $15 billion.

In February 2017, a leaked report from the Department of Homeland Security put it much higher, at $21.6 billion.

In April 2017, the Democratic staff of the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee said in a report that costs could soar to nearly $70 billion — not including the significant costs and legal resources required for land acquisition.

Peters’ spokesman Jacob Peters said the congressman used the $21.6 billion estimate because it "comes from the internal report done by the Department of Homeland Security."

"This estimate falls somewhere in the middle of the range of cost estimates," the spokesman added. "Because this report was commissioned by (Department of Homeland Security) Secretary Kelly, and is based on the Trump administration’s own planning process to build walls and fences to cover almost the entirety of the border that is not already fenced, it is the best current estimate for what President Trump is likely to ask Congress to appropriate to build his border wall."

We also used the $21.6 billion as our estimate.
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: presidio on December 24, 2018, 03:28:12 PM
I just wish politicians would work off of facts not rhetoric.

Rhetoric is all they have to work with.

Witness the never-ending parade of dolt-stupid comments politicians make (and when challenged about their ignorance always revert to the idea they were joking, even as anyone seeing it live knows they were dead serious at the time).

My favorite episode is this genius in a congressional hearing asking a Navy Admiral if the island of Guam was at risk of tipping over if a large troop build-up occurred. As soon as he was ridiculed for pathological stupidity, he claimed he was joking. Watch it and see if you can determine where the joking occurs.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tipping-point/

He is far from the only example of unqualified folks being elected into positions where their legislative actions can directly and negatively affect national well-being.

A politician never met a fact that couldn't be ignored or twisted.
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: RedBuffalo on December 26, 2018, 09:15:49 AM
Going from bad to worse....

Campgrounds Update 12/26/18
Chisos Basin, Rio Grande Village, and Cottonwood Campgrounds are now closed due to sanitation and resource impact concerns.

Additional closures update 12/26/18
The Santa Elena Canyon Trailhead and Trail has been closed due to resource impact concerns.
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: badknees on December 26, 2018, 10:33:28 AM
Going from bad to worse....

Campgrounds Update 12/26/18
Chisos Basin, Rio Grande Village, and Cottonwood Campgrounds are now closed due to sanitation and resource impact concerns.

Additional closures update 12/26/18
The Santa Elena Canyon Trailhead and Trail has been closed due to resource impact concerns.

No surprises here. Resource impact is a well used rationale by BBNP. I have experience with this and a FOIA request, but that's a different story.
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: presidio on December 26, 2018, 02:40:25 PM
Resource impact is a well used rationale by BBNP.

Yep, easy to claim, but just ask how they quantify/justify it and be prepared for diversion and dissemblance.
Essentially, it is whatever they want to say it is. However, in the case of campground issues...that is 'maintenance' not 'resource' impacts.

Quote
I have experience with this and a FOIA request, but that's a different story.

...and one I'd very much like to hear.
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: iwhite96 on January 03, 2019, 09:51:36 AM
The conservative CBS news reports 5 billion.  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/government-funding-bill-passage-now-uncertain-in-the-house/

The ultra conservative NPR reports 5.7  Billion   https://www.npr.org/2018/12/20/678602214/senate-approves-temporary-funding-bill-house-likely-to-act-today-avoiding-shutdo

If it was 3.5 billion, then the shut down fight is only over   .079%  of the total budget.

Seriously, they should just give him the money. Everyone knows that Washington is not afraid to spend money. The whole issue is just what the money is going to be spent on.

In the mean time, nat'l parks are going to continue getting trashed. And it could be for many more weeks or even months.
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: bam.bam on January 25, 2019, 05:38:47 PM
The way I read it, you can drive and hike the park but you cannot camp over night except for the Basin Lodge and RG campsite.
Title: Re: Gov. shutdown primitive camping / backcountry camping.
Post by: House Made of Dawn on January 25, 2019, 05:54:56 PM
At least a three week reprieve.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uxpgcHn1aH4


Sent from my iPhone using Big Bend Chat (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=88143)