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Willy Nilly Bear Closure............Again

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Offline elhombre

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Willy Nilly Bear Closure............Again
« on: October 19, 2018, 09:17:15 AM »
TEMPORARY CLOSURE OF THE LOST MINE TRAIL
Alert 1 , Severity ,closure ,,TEMPORARY CLOSURE OF THE LOST MINE TRAIL
Due to increased bear activity the Lost Mine Trail area will be closed as of October 12, 2018. The trail, trailhead, parking area, and north facing slope of Casa Grande Peak will be closed until further notice. All other trails remain open at this time.l


Looks like the Pinon pines nuts are starting to fall off the trees again.  And people are cracking them open with their shoes as they walk the trail.  And the bears are taking advantage of the "free" meal and scarfing them up.  That means all humans must stay away.  Crazy how this event seems to follow a pattern....

Let's review some Park closures: 
Laguna Meadows was closed for a while because someone saw a bear there.
South Rim was closed to tent camping, but NOT hiking for months, because bears were seen in the area and someone was unable to walk by because a bear was eating Pinion nuts.
Lost Mine trail has been closed multiple times because people see bears there.

Moral of the Story  -  STOP REPORTING BEAR SIGHTINGS TO THE PARK RANGERS

I ask the same question every year.  What is the actual number of bear sightings that the Park is made aware of that triggers a trail closure?  What is the empirical data of bear activity that must be observed that re-opens a trail?  Or do they simply listen to some progressive indoctrinated college graduate that saw a bear once for his opinion of when bear closures should be enacted?

Why, you may ask, does this idiot on the internet complain about the closures every year?  Because you asked, I would remind everyone that the peregrine falcon closure continues year, after year, after year.  And if you delve into the park's own rules, they are suppose to reevaluate this specific closure to insure it is still needed.  Now, have you ever seen the re-evaluation taken place?  Is there any data available that is used to support the closure of half the South Rim EVERY year?  Or has the closure simple become accepted, and the Park is able to keep all of us dirty campers out of that part of the park every year, and we all accept that ruling?  Seems kind of funny that the closure dates never change, and the closure area stays the same too.

Will these bear closures become the same thing?
For 2 years the Fake News Media, Obama's FBI, CIA & DOJ, and Swamp dwelling Politicians COLLUDED, Illegally Spied,and LIED to America about POTUS in order to overturn an election

All the while demanding censorship and removal of opposition Conservative "hate speech" voices.  Globalists Hate Freedom

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Offline Imre

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Re: Willy Nilly Bear Closure............Again
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2018, 10:01:13 AM »
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Seems kind of funny that the closure dates never change, and the closure area stays the same too.
I can remember when Casa Grande was closed due to peregrine falcon nesting. That is no longer the case.
For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious, and wrong.
- H.L. Mencken

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Offline marufo

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Re: Willy Nilly Bear Closure............Again
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2018, 10:44:14 AM »
+1 Imre - good point.

It may be a half-full/half empty kind of thing. There absolutely are folks in the NPS who are overly concerned with making rules and being risk-adverse at the cost of the visitor experience. But there also folks who resist that kind of thinking.

I think it's a good sign that the new superintendent comes out of Science & Resource Management rather than law enforcement like the last several superintendents. And I think that the way that this closure has been justified is notably different than in previous years in that it's about protecting the bears rather than being overprotective of people. My emphasis below:

The Chisos Mountain range is home to a healthy black bear population, and this year’s rains have resulted in abundant pine and oak nut production. Bears must feed heavily during the fall months and depend upon these vital food sources to prepare for their winter denning period.

According to Superintendent Bob Krumenaker, "During this period of heightened bear activity, we want to ensure the safety of both park visitors and the bears. This is a wildlife sanctuary, so we'll give bears the space they need until they're finished feeding in this area. We appreciate the understanding and cooperation of park visitors, despite the inconvenience."

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Offline presidio

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Re: Willy Nilly Bear Closure............Again
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2018, 11:47:39 AM »
Moral of the Story  -  STOP REPORTING BEAR SIGHTINGS TO THE PARK RANGERS

Isn't ever going to happen. The outdoor-challenged needy tourist ALWAYS excitedly will run to a funny hatter to report the most astounding thing that ever has occurred to them beyond the safety of their living room. OMG, they SAW a BEAR!!!!!

Quote
I ask the same question every year.  What is the actual number of bear sightings that the Park is made aware of that triggers a trail closure?  What is the empirical data of bear activity that must be observed that re-opens a trail?  Or do they simply listen to some progressive indoctrinated college graduate that saw a bear once for his opinion of when bear closures should be enacted?

Why, you may ask, does this idiot on the internet complain about the closures every year?  Because you asked, I would remind everyone that the peregrine falcon closure continues year, after year, after year.  And if you delve into the park's own rules, they are suppose to reevaluate this specific closure to insure it is still needed.  Now, have you ever seen the re-evaluation taken place?  Is there any data available that is used to support the closure of half the South Rim EVERY year?  Or has the closure simple become accepted, and the Park is able to keep all of us dirty campers out of that part of the park every year, and we all accept that ruling?  Seems kind of funny that the closure dates never change, and the closure area stays the same too.

Will these bear closures become the same thing?

I assume you are posing rhetorical questions. Because, if anyone is expecting the NPS both to do a proper job AND to engage in periodic reviews of what that job is (and what they SHOULD be doing) then they are going to be left grievously wanting.

The NPS knows best. Their superior grasp of all things obviates the need to explain to anyone their methods or rationale.

Besides, closing half the south rim every year means they do not have to be torn from their desks for any more of the minimal amount of actual field time they already do not do (yeah that sentence is lacking clarity....but it IS the NPS we're talking about here, so lack of clarity is appropriate).

Imagine what on-site knowledge they might gain if they went outdoors once in a while. Of course, that could backfire even worse on us and result in more restrictions. Best to leave them attending to campfire entertainment and re-inking the passport stamp pad.
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<  presidio  >
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline presidio

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Re: Willy Nilly Bear Closure............Again
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2018, 12:01:50 PM »
And I think that the way that this closure has been justified is notably different than in previous years in that it's about protecting the bears rather than being overprotective of people.

While it is better explained, it does not automatically follow that a closure is necessary.

Quote
According to Superintendent Bob Krumenaker, "During this period of heightened bear activity, we want to ensure the safety of both park visitors and the bears. This is a wildlife sanctuary, so we'll give bears the space they need until they're finished feeding in this area. We appreciate the understanding and cooperation of park visitors, despite the inconvenience."

Consider that if this level of intense management were applied to those parks where grizzlies actually are eating tourists, no one ever would be able to use the trails.

Of course, I will have to admit that the NPS does attract a high number of folks possessing a special level of stupid, not seen elsewhere. Witness the idiot in Yellowstone taunting the bison. Still, no amount of regulation can fix stupid (though prosecution may instill knowledge through a lightening of the wallet and some time in the pokey).

The rest of the world gets by fine with people being expected to be responsible for their own safety on all other public lands. But not in the NationalParkLand division of DisneylandTM where reality constantly is interrupted by the illusion of administrative safety. You do not have to have any wits in a park because the NPS has made them unnecessary; they will do the thinking for you.
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<  presidio  >
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline dprather

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Re: Willy Nilly Bear Closure............Again
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2018, 12:06:43 PM »
I am curious about the bear carrying capacity of the Chisos.  I am very pleased about the bear come-back, and especially pleased that "Life found a way" to restore the bear population without the dubious help of bureaucracies. 

I fear, however, that life might be finding to great a way.  Is it possible to have too many bear in a relatively small "mountain island" environment like the Chisos?

What does one do with spare bear?



Leave "quit" at the car.  Embrace the trail as your friend.  Expect to enjoy yourself, and to be amazed.

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Offline Imre

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Re: Willy Nilly Bear Closure............Again
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2018, 12:29:20 PM »
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Is it possible to have too many bear in a relatively small "mountain island" environment like the Chisos?
Nature will take care of that. More to the point, is it possible to have a stable population of bears in the Chisos, or is the population destined for perpetual "boom and bust" cycles following wet and dry years?
For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious, and wrong.
- H.L. Mencken

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Offline presidio

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Re: Willy Nilly Bear Closure............Again
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2018, 12:30:53 PM »
I am curious about the bear carrying capacity of the Chisos.  I am very pleased about the bear come-back, and especially pleased that "Life found a way" to restore the bear population without the dubious help of bureaucracies. 

I fear, however, that life might be finding to great a way.  Is it possible to have too many bear in a relatively small "mountain island" environment like the Chisos?

As there is no top-level predator to take down a bear and control populations, only two controls exist.

Food supply is the main determinant. As it waxes and wanes, the population normally will self-adjust.

If it does not and the tourists then are appalled at ragged, starving animals, mechanical controls have to be used, whether direct reduction or trapping and relocating.

One must keep in mind parks are not the high-function natural ecosystems the NPS wants to pretend they are. Such systems exist in Alaska and Canada, but are rare down here. Even the greater Yellowstone region only is a functional illusion under intense management.

Parks may be "wildlife sanctuaries" but they also detrimentally function as places where wildlife habituates to an unnatural existence amid interaction with hordes of tourists doing things that never occur outside of parks. Such interaction also frequently results in those closures and removal of animals deemed dangerous due to that habituation.

So, despite the bears finding their way back from Mexico, the NPS bureaucracy is ever alert to constantly and unnaturally insert themselves in managing the ecosystem.

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<  presidio  >
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline dprather

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Re: Willy Nilly Bear Closure............Again
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2018, 04:04:35 PM »
Instead of letting nature take is course on an over population during harsh times, why is there not thought given to using the increasing population to seed other areas?

For example, the infinitely wise and wonderful Federal government has seeded east Texas with timber rattlers (this has given the good old boys something else to shoot at, and believe me they are doing what they do).  East Texas once had a thriving bear population and such must be natural habitat for black bear.  Why not use East Texas as bear overflow?

Leave "quit" at the car.  Embrace the trail as your friend.  Expect to enjoy yourself, and to be amazed.

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Offline presidio

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Re: Willy Nilly Bear Closure............Again
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2018, 07:49:19 PM »
East Texas once had a thriving bear population and such must be natural habitat for black bear.  Why not use East Texas as bear overflow?

All good in theory. But, just propose doing that and watch the reaction from politicians and residents.

None of them will agree that it is a good idea. Bears belong in parks, where the tourists can be entertained by them until the trails are closed.
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<  presidio  >
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline Imre

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Re: Willy Nilly Bear Closure............Again
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2018, 09:41:04 PM »
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One must keep in mind parks are not the high-function natural ecosystems the NPS wants to pretend they are.
A point forcefully made 30 years ago by Alston Chase:
https://www.amazon.com/Playing-God-Yellowstone-Destruction-Americas/dp/0156720361/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1540003183&sr=8-6&keywords=alston+chase
For every complex problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious, and wrong.
- H.L. Mencken

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Offline presidio

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Re: Willy Nilly Bear Closure............Again
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2018, 10:11:20 PM »
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One must keep in mind parks are not the high-function natural ecosystems the NPS wants to pretend they are.
A point forcefully made 30 years ago by Alston Chase:
https://www.amazon.com/Playing-God-Yellowstone-Destruction-Americas/dp/0156720361/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1540003183&sr=8-6&keywords=alston+chase

Indeed. A data point where truth collides with fiction.
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<  presidio  >
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline TheWildWestGuy

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Re: Willy Nilly Bear Closure............Again
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2018, 12:44:41 AM »
In the natural world bears would not die off so suddenly during droughts, due to the lack of water in the Basin which pumps water uphill from the biggest springs in the entire park (Oak Springs) just to provide for the tourists lodging (flush toilets and showers)  and store/lodge/visitors center etc.     The NPS should at least try to "restore" the native water supply during times of drought to provide water for the deer/bear/animals instead of just letting their populations plummet due to drought conditions and use by humans who have lowered the water table and filled The Basin with people (and dogs).  The bear population plummets during droughts because the humans are sucking out all the water and populating places where the few perennial springs do exist while doing little or nothing to compensate the wildlife for this effect because it would be "unnatural".   There are very few water sources available to animals during drought that are not overtaken by humans - Oak Springs below the Window,  Upper Juniper Springs, Fresno Creek, and nothing really left in the Basin except the sewage treatment plant settling ponds.   That's part of why the bear populations go to near zero during times of drought.     TWWG


 


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