Texas senators pushing to allow guns in national parks

[uh_clem]

  I did a little Googling and found these articles:

Gun Ownership in Switzerland

Switzerland Considers Gun Control

Gun laws under fire after latest shooting

Swiss campaign against army guns in homes

[okiehiker]

Comparing US conditions to Switzerland is about like saying, "gee I knew I guy once who had a lot of guns and he didn't shoot anybody!"

Switzerland has less than 0.5% and the land area of the US and approximately 2% of our population.  It's area is almost twice that of New Jersey with slightly fewer people. 

If you want to build a house in Switzerland you must own and maintain the property for two years and when you begin construction you may only work during regular business hours and all supplies, materials, tools a debris must be completely out of sight when you are not working.  I am sure these kinds of regulations vary significantly from Canton to Canton, but life in all European countries is vastly more regulated than in the US and it is even moreso in Switzerland. 

Their militia is indeed armed, they also are subject to call-up for purposes of national defense, just as they are under our constitution. 

No gun supporters in the US (and I am among them) argue for the kind of restrictive requirements that Switzerland has.  And no one that i know of is calling for Section I article 6 of the constitution to be enforced on gun owners as its plain language could allow.

The statement elsewhere that there are two groups "hunters" and "anti-hunters" is just plain silly.  The majority of Americans do not hunt and DO support the rights of hunters.  There are a few vocal people on both sides who discredit most people and it is a shame.    But don't ever let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

[badknees]

The BBC article is all the more interesting since Britain has essentially banned firearms from private ownership (with predictable violent results)

Having a spouse from the Island (Great Britain), I have entered into gun ownership discussions with my father-in-law on many occasions. The Brits may have ruled the world at one time but now they are sheep to a tyrannical gov't. They are overtaxed, underpaid, gas is $9.00/gal and they wait in line, a lot. They won't even complain if they get a bad meal at a restaurant. They have swallowed the poison about guns.

Their gov't considers them subjects and not citizens. I keep telling my FIL to stand up and take back his country, but he just says baaaaa, and gets shorn daily.

[/quote]

[Undertaker]

In case anyone forgets the Brits had to request firearms from the US as Hitler was running over the rest of that part of the world. My last word on this discussion is a gun is a tool, there has never be a single incidence of a firearm killing or robbing anyone it takes human action. Guns don't cause crime anymore than a pencil creates bad spelling, licensing is neither good nor bad and your drivers license proves this to a degree guns will never reach. 50,000 plus killed a year and hundreds of thousands hurt. Mostly if not all licensed drivers.

[presidio]

Comparing US conditions to Switzerland is about like saying, "gee I knew I guy once who had a lot of guns and he didn't shoot anybody!"

Or maybe like saying 'all guns should be banned/regulated because somebody uses one illegally'? The point was that the presence of guns is not the root cause of crime, but certain political interests in the US don't like guns to be in the possession of citizens.

Switzerland has less than 0.5% and the land area of the US and approximately 2% of our population.  It's area is almost twice that of New Jersey with slightly fewer people. ....(and etc.)

And how is any of that is important to the discussion? The topic was the availability of firearms and how each government went about either regulating them or not.

The statement elsewhere that there are two groups "hunters" and "anti-hunters" is just plain silly.  The majority of Americans do not hunt and DO support the rights of hunters.  There are a few vocal people on both sides who discredit most people and it is a shame.    But don't ever let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

Well, as the author of that statement, I stand by it. If you will take the time to re-read it you will note that this subset of the population IS accounted for. If you don't hunt but are not opposed to hunting, then you are not anti-hunting. Is that somehow unclear, or is there some nuance of that category you think I'm missing? I am less certain about your broad statement that a 'majority' of non-hunters support hunting rights. Maybe they do, but it would be interesting for you to share the source of your data.

[okiehiker]

Hunters are a significant minority in the United State.  4.8% of the population bought a hunting license in 2006.  14.7 million people.  6.7% reported hunting last year.  7.5% of the population reports having hunted in the past five years.  The difference is not made of mostly of poachers, it is children and people who "go hunting" with friends or family but are the actual hunters. Many families in Oklahoma go camp together during hunting season, but not all carry a firearm.

More than 90% of Americans are not hunters.  If most of these people were anti-hunting hunting would be illegal. 

94% of Americans favor stricter rergistration and training requirements, including 65-75% of hunters depending upon the specific question.

I realize that Oklahoma is not representative of the nation as a whole.  But there is essentially no one in this state (some small single-digit minority that I have never encountered) who opposes gun ownership and/or hunting.  I have served in the legislature and on a metropolitan city commission and have dealt with these issues on a daily basis. 

If there were a credible group or noisy citizen out there I would have encountered them. 

Most of the Brady-bill supporters and hand gun control advocates are responding to very real safety issues in their communities and are not nuts out there who think a farmer shouldn't shoot a rattlesnake.  Just like most members of the NRA don't think its okay to mount a bazooka on the hood of your car. 

In 33 years here I have met one person who opposed guns because he opposed guns because he opposed guns.  He had no rational explanation for his feelings at all.  So those people do exist and the can be noisy. 

I thought your statement that "there are two groups a) hunters b)anti-hunters was fairly clear.  If you meant that there are two groups other than most people (who in fact don't really care one way or another) then I missed it somehow. 

Regarding Switzerland.  Yes Swizerland has a government and so does the US.  If you want to compare firearms statistics then you must consider other regulatory and cultural factors as well.  Yes they have lots of guns, but it is a country in which you cannot pee without the government knowing about it.  Though it is very pretty, I do not want to live there.  Because we have great freedom here, we must also bear great responsibility. 

I am among the 75% of gun owners who believe that gun ownership and use demands excellence in the skills and practices associated therewith.  Regarding the argument about driving, it IS too easy to get a drivers license in the US.  People can drive like hell on the autobahn and not kill each other because they know how to drive.  We basically kill 7,500 teenagers every year in America because we are too lazy to teach them and hold them accountable. 

[SHANEA]

Okiehiker - aren't you in Missouri now?   

[okiehiker]

Moving Jan. 6 after church. 

We have a lot to do between now and then!  (But still trying to have a merry Christmas)

[Undertaker]

Okie you missed my point also, I agree a license is to easy, It was my response to points raised that you should be licensed to own or carry a weapon, that is the simple answer to my statement. This argument is a no win beat the horse to death waste of time.  I am highly skilled in the use of handguns and rifles as I have shot in competition since high school, I also agree it is a matter of education, most of the people who are injured or harmed by self inflicted shootings are due to lack of education in safety and responsible ownership of both drivers licenses and gun licenses.  We have had two police officers shot themselves this year due to lapse in brain.  Gun is always loaded, never point it at anything you do not intend to harm etc. The choice to carry or not is hard. You should practice practice practice and be skilled in any thing you chose to do. You climb and you did not become skilled by heading out to the mountain one day and starting to climb, I assume you chose education before you begin. As an avid hunter, every year when our group hunts we review safety every day, I know, not a lot of people due this and this lapse gets people killed. Not leaving a trip plan or boating plan, not carrying enough water in BB, all just good common sense, lapse in memory or whatever, is what harms or kills in most cases. There is no simple answer, most likely never will be, but my best guess is education is the best answer.

[okiehiker]

Undertaker, I am and was in complete agreement with your post(s).  Though my father was an avid hunter, I really learned most of what I know from the local Police Athletic League in the New York suburb where I was raised. My brother and I shot regularly and he was a riflery instructor at a summer camp in Minnesota for two years.  When I ran the camp in Colorado a couple of my staff members had pistols.  They were stunningly incompetent in shooting.  It scared the hell out of me from both a personal and liability perspective.

[presidio]

They were stunningly incompetent in *****.  It scared the hell out of me from both a personal and liability perspective.

Insert favorite topic. This applies pretty universally to life in a litigious society. I like the adjective but, sadly, 'stunning' incompetence is more regularly seen than just plain incompetence.

[Undertaker]

I shoot locally every week not all but some police officers I shoot with are somewhat sloppy shooters, practice, practice and more practice is the only way to keep the edge and be safe and accurate. Enough said everyone have a Merry Christmas and a safe and happy New Year.

[presidio]

Just when you may have thought everything was said on this topic, along comes a new tidbit...

Senator Crapo And 46 Other Senators Request Policy Change Regarding The Carrying And Transportation Of Firearms On Public Lands:  On December 14, U.S. Senator Mike Crapo (R-ID) sent a letter to Interior Secretary Dirk Kempthorne requesting that prohibitions preventing law-abiding citizens from transporting and carrying firearms on certain public lands be removed.

The NRA initiated and worked closely with Senator Crapo on this letter and appreciates his bipartisan effort to get 47 Senators to sign a letter to Interior Secretary Dirk Kempthorne requesting a change in policy allowing state law to govern the carrying and transportation of firearms in national parks and wildlife refuges, as is the case of national forests and BLM lands. We have been working for nearly five years to change this policy and applaud the strong Senate support for this policy change expressed in this letter.

View the letter to Interior Secretary Dirk Kempthorne

And....said letter....

http://www.nraila.org/Media/PDFs/kempthorne_ltr.pdf

How timely!

[presidio]

Seriously, can anybody tell us if this letter does anybody any good, other than getting these guys Straight A's with the NRA?

Well, if you don't ask for something, it sure isn't going to happen. And, the Secretary of the Interior can't just ignore a Congressional request so, yes, some change could result. I don't know that any of the signatories were in any particular need of upping their cred with the NRA crowd. Maybe it's a rare example of the political process actually doing some work in the 'representative' arena and everyone is too jaded to believe that can happen anymore.

Even if it is just window dressing, it is no different from other politicos waxing poetic over 'green' issues or health care or any other special interest.

[SHANEA]

Hunt of a Lifetime