How do you plan for campsites?

[dkerr24]

While I agree the Grand Canyon rim areas and even the corridor trails do encounter big crowds, there are many non-corridor trails in the canyon where you could go for long periods of time without seeing anyone.  One of my favorite places there is Clear Creek trail, which is seldom used as it takes a days' hike just to get to the trailhead.  The entire North Rim is rarely visited by tourists, due to the remote location and long drive to reach it.

Once you get past the tourons at the rim lookout points, it can provide almost the same solitude as one can find in BIBE.

[presidio]

Once you get past the tourons at the rim lookout points, it can provide almost the same solitude as one can find in BIBE.

True, but you have to get through the crushing crowds to do that, as is the case at most any national park during prime use times. The point was that other agencies don't have this to deal with and you're not slogging along on wide, prepped trails with the relatively few others who have broken through the tourist wall. Unless you get off the main routes, you still have 'conveniences' like signs, toilets, shelters, etc. that simply rarely exist on lands not under the NPS thumb. It's managed and less wild when you don't have to think because the NPS lets you know at every trail intersection which way to go, what is ahead and how far. That they make these improvements is evidence both of high usage needing site hardening and an innate desire to always be 'leading' people around the parks.

I have remarked before that, in the backcountry, Big Bend is more like BLM land than the NPS would care to admit, excepting of course that you only can camp where they let you.

[leee]

In a nutshell, here is the short answer to your questions....

Wow, that's a great answer, thanks! How comes you know so much about this?

c) No money changes hands for states to acquire public domain for state land.

Yeah, I thought so --- but there would have to be people or companies buying lots of land, and they all would have to have lots of money to do that. Hmm ... it's interesting ... at the time all the land was bought by individuals, the currency was backed up by resources in gold, wasn't it? So the more land was sold, the more gold would have to be on backup, wouldn't it? But I'm afraid we are going more and more off topic with this ...

BLM is nearly the largest federal revenue producer that generates income to the government by a means other than taxes.

That's another amazing thing. There must be quite a lot of commercial users of public land for that.

You will be on your own with few rangers, fewer rules, no hand-holding, no facilities, no permits to speak of and a wilder experience.

Sounds good to me :)

[leee]

NPS. They operate and regulate you to death because these things 'might happen'. They have created their own curse with respect to baby-sitting tourists and in the process have created a Disneyland-like outdoor atmosphere where everything is managed to the maximum extent possible.

Bleh ... We'll have to see, we're going tomorrow :)

But then, I think both options are good to have, the unmanaged and the managed land. If someone doesn't have any experience with hiking and backpacking, the more managed places are probably good places to start and learn at a minimized risk.

[presidio]

Wow, that's a great answer, thanks! How comes you know so much about this?

As a nearly full time user of BLM and FS lands (Big Bend is my sole NPS experience), it pays to know how they function and their history. I have been very involved in public meetings, especially the ones where fees rear their ugly heads. When you know as much as the employees, they can't buffalo you with BS.

at the time all the land was bought by individuals, the currency was backed up by resources in gold, wasn't it? So the more land was sold, the more gold would have to be on backup, wouldn't it?

The homesteading laws allowed persons who 'proved up' a claim (initially 160 acres, but various other laws raised that over time) could buy the land at the whopping cost of first $1.25 and acre and then $2.50....that's 125 and 250 PENNIES per acre. However, keep in mind the majority of land that was sold in this manner occurred before 1910.

That's another amazing thing. There must be quite a lot of commercial users of public land for that.

The principal revenue generator is oil & gas leases and then royalties from wells in production. Hundreds of millions of dollars a year in leases and $8 billion in royalties in 2005 (though royalties are collected by the Minerals Management Service (another Interior agency, but they collect on wells on public land so the initial source is BLM). Grazing brings in a little but is relatively insignificant since grazing fees are held artificially low by political meddling. A cow unit month on BLM typically brings in around $1.40 per month per cow...equivalent costs to lease private lands are in the $10 per cow per month range. Other sources are movie productions which increasingly are going to BLM land and, surprising to a lot of people, timber harvesting. BLM sells as much if not more timber than the USFS. Other minerals like sand/gravel/stone etc., are sold at fair market value.

Sounds good to me :)

And to the folks who use public land.

[dkerr24]

The crowds, need for far-in-advance planning are 2 of the main reasons I won't be going back to the Grand Canyon anytime soon.  To me, BIBE was a breath of fresh air in that I could just show up and not have to book things 4 months in advance via fax.  Hiking the GC took too much thought about where/when I was going to be.  There were days I pushed myself too hard just trying to stay 'on permit' and not get myself in hot water with the local rangers.

begin rant: I think that's one thing about the NPS that shocked me about a heavily visited park like the canyon... they still use a fax machine to take permit requests.  That phone line is almost constantly busy... end rant.