Border Agents Can Search Laptops Without Cause, Appeals Court Rules

[leee]

They won't care and eventually not let me in since I'm not an American citizen yet. However, it's outrageous.

Besides, what's the point of it? People who would want to bring in questionable information would simply transfer it by other means, eventually using encryption methods.


It may be dangerous as well, like if you take some pictures on a beach while on vacation and happen to have some naked children on them: They might think you are into that kind of pornography.

You might even have information on a device you don't know about, or you don't know about anymore. What if someone mailed you some questionable information, but the mail was automatically moved to your SPAM folder and hasn't been deleted yet --- or it even has been deleted but was recovered by border agents? How about a device you borrowed from someone or bought used? Maybe they find or recover information on it that gets you into trouble? Maybe somebody finds a way to store information in other peoples cellphones without their knowledge, but border agents examining the cell phone discover it?

What about RFID chips? I don't know if it's possible to change the information stored on them, that may depend on the type of chip. But if you carry one, maybe even without knowing, somebody could make use of that and get you into trouble ...


I'm not sneaking through other peoples information, personal or not, and others don't have to sneak through my information. That's all to it, with no exceptions. If anybody tries, you should have the right to shoot him.

[RichardM]

They won't care and eventually not let me in since I'm not an American citizen yet. However, it's outrageous.

Just in case you haven't been to Big Bend yet, you may not know that the border patrol checkpoints are not all at the border. There's one north of the park on the way to Marathon and another on the road to Alpine.  Everyone gets stopped and questioned (unless the agents don't feel like getting out of their office) regardless of whether they crossed over the border.  The implication for Big Bend visitors is that your digital data may be scrutinized upon leaving the area.  Try your "only if you let me see yours" line at the checkpoint and more than likely it'll be a few weeks before you see your laptop and/or camera again.  That is assuming, of course, that the local agents choose to ask to see your laptop/camera/etc in the first place.

[randell]

Technically, the agents could disassemble your entire vehicle looking for drugs, etc, then leave it there on the side of the road disassembled if they don't feel like putting it back together.  They don't usually do this, but if you annoy them enough, they could.

[uh_clem]

Technically, the agents could disassemble your entire vehicle looking for drugs, etc, then leave it there on the side of the road disassembled if they don't feel like putting it back together.  They don't usually do this, but if you annoy them enough, they could.

Who says power corrupts?!?

[presidio]

Can They Do That?   

Sure, it's THEIR park, not yours.

[presidio]

Federal agents at the border do not need any reason to search through travelers' laptops, cell phones or digital cameras for evidence of crimes, a federal appeals court ruled Monday, extending the government's power to look through belongings like suitcases at the border to electronics.

The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals sided with the government, finding that the so-called border exception to the Fourth Amendment's prohibition on unreasonable searches applied not just to suitcases and papers, but also to electronics.

This is interesting if only for the fact that this kind of ruling is out of character for the 9th Circuit, based in San Francisco. This is the sort of ruling to be more expected from the 5th Circuit, which covers TX.

The 9th is far more known for wacky opinions that run contrary to the rest of the judicial system, and which are overturned by the Supreme Court more ofter than any other circuit court. Of course, it may be that this one will be overturned as well, but given that the undercurrent is 'terrorism' prevention, don't look for this one to go away.

Since this is a ruling by a circuit court it applies only to the states covered by that court, though it can be used by other circuits as precedence if they so choose. Look for a challenge before the Supreme Court, where it can be rejected, thus affirming the ruling, or acceptance for hearing and later decision. At that point, regardless of what happens, the outcome will then be applicable to all circuits.

[presidio]

it's your government you should be worried about.

Sadly, that is becoming more the case all the time.

[SHANEA]

Can They Do That?   

Sure, it's THEIR park, not yours.

Who is their (they)?

It's like the sign just outside of town that says "Warning:  No Trespassing"  US Government Property.  A free trip to GITMO for violating this sign...  Here is what we will do to you...

Who is the US Government?  Where do I contact them at?  No information on what the facility is, just surrounded by fence with one lone building. 

[presidio]

Before a government wants to have a right to search my computer or other devices, it has to give me the right to search theirs.

The rules are different at the border and have been that way for more than 200 years. Like it or not, the recent developments are just legal opinion catching up with technology. Like it or not, you aren't going to change it.

However, I strongly encourage you take this stance immediately and at the point Customs or the Border Patrol decide to look at your electronics. This might leave them laughing too hard to handcuff you, but that would require a sense of humor they will not demonstrate in the field to your benefit.

[presidio]

Who is their (they)?

Well, I snipped too much out. The answer to your question is the NPS.

Quote from: benthegrate on December 30, 2007, 02:17:36 am
Still, as recently as 2005 I was pulled out of Hot Springs in the middle of the night by rangers with night vision and told to get dressed before I got back in.

Reply by Shanea

Can They Do That?

[Undertaker]

This will become a mute point if gas prices keep going up, no one will be traveling, guess I will not be taking my computer to the Bend anymore, while I am it you won't need the park staff with no visitors, and the park can really a wild place. I will just turn around at the check point and bid them a nice day.

[SHANEA]

Ah, you don't have to be driving through a Check Point Charlie around the border either.  Just drive by any major airport.  Huge Signs these days around the perimeter of the airport indicating that you are now driving in a secured area and you can be stopped and searched, including your camera, computer, etc.  Don't believe me, next time you drive to the airport keep an eye out for the signs.  In Houston I believe the signs are in yellow.   Thus, if you are just taking an alternate route from say Hwy59 down JFK Blvd to hook up with the Beltway 8 - you will enter the zone w/o ever getting to the airport itself. 

[Peach]

The chances for the average citizen to have anything of concern to the Feds. on their computer are somewhere between nill and none.  So this is not one of the monsters under my bed.  The chances of setting up one's tent in the wrong spot, or hiking without proper papers, or falling asleep in the parking lot out by the hot springs, while certainly not common, is far more likely to happen.

I myself have never had a problem with Rangers or Border patrol.  I think attitude on initial contact makes all the difference in the world.  But, the seemingly endless BBChat complaints about heavy handed enforcement of park rules is as common as posts on the types of tents one might like to use.  Given this written record right here on the Chat, fear of draconian park rules and enforcement are, I feel, a far greater threat than what is on my PC.

I haven't really noticed "heavey handed enforcement" of park rules, but then again I'm careful to follow them...figure there's a reason for most of them.  And Border Patrol, everytime we pass the checkpoint my daughter starts talking up a storm to them     ...I think they're happy to wave us through 

[leee]

I know I'm not going to change anything. Nonetheless it's scary.

Just think about the argumentation that electronic devices could be considered as extensions of peoples' memory and thus are too personal to be searched: It seems a bit hard to follow at the first glance, but yes, I do use electronic devices to store information from my memory.

Now when someone manages to build a device that can be used to read peoples' memories from their brains, such devices will be deployed at all borders and ports of entry, and it will become the default procedure to read peoples' memories and to store them just the same way they do with fingerprints now. They will have software running to analyze these memories and decide on that basis what to do with the person. The next step is to deploy these devices in every DPS office to read and to store the memories of everyone who applies for a drivers license or an ID card or wants to renew one. And so on ...

Searching peoples memories like that is exactly the same idea, the same principle by which electronic devices (or other storage media) is being searched. The only difference is that you still have a choice to store something outside of the memory in your brain or not --- but who cares about that difference?

You could take the argumentation a step further and question how much a choice you actually still have about storing your memories on storage media or not. Nowadays, we depend a great deal on information and the availability of information, and we are supposed to know a lot of things or at least be able to access needed information to bring it back into our memories or to learn something very quickly. There isn't much choice anymore, there is a substantial difference nowadays compared to 200 or even 20 years ago in that.

[LandCruisers4Life]

Who can say "Thought Police"........

Yeah, I'm the nutty one.

I think I'll celebrate by going out and buying a nice AR-15 with 7 magazines and 1000 rounds of nice South African military ammunition.