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OK, so this will be controversial...

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Offline presidio

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2017, 12:52:10 AM »
Everyone needs to breath and chill.

Yep. However, some folks are so over-invested in vitriol, anger and self-righteousness (but they are tolerant....just ask them), they are going to stroke out (and then become an even greater burden on society than they already are.

When I watch the demonstrations on the news the first thing that comes to mind is: why aren't these people at work or in school? Do they have nothing other than outrage to fill their empty lives? Are they all on welfare with lots of free time and income paid for by those adults who are productive members of society?

Do they even know what the hell they are protesting? Based on their chants and signs and costumes, it appears not.
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline Jimbow

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2017, 04:42:59 AM »
The genius that doesn't immediately deport people is the same that allows accused criminals free on bail. Innocent until proven guilty. Kind of a cornerstone principle of our legal system.

11.4 million illegal immigrants get all the press. 43 million legal immigrants fly under the radar. With a stroke of a pen we could have 54 million illegal. 54 million legal. Pick any number you want. But we have 54 million immigrants in this country.



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« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 05:18:05 AM by Jimbow »
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Offline mule ears

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2017, 05:45:03 AM »
Richard, CG, I thought the front page said no politics?   :eusa_doh:
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Offline Slimkitty

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2017, 07:34:07 AM »

Richard, CG, I thought the front page said no politics?   :eusa_doh:

It does.  However, this particular conversation has stayed civil, and it does interest me in regards to the park.  Perhaps there can be some exceptions to the rule.


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Offline presidio

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2017, 09:48:59 AM »
The genius that doesn't immediately deport people is the same that allows accused criminals free on bail. Innocent until proven guilty. Kind of a cornerstone principle of our legal system.

Illegal immigrants are released on their own recognizance (meaning there is no bail). They have no ties to any community, no resources, no address, and no way to track once released. They simply disappear into society and usually only surface when caught doing something else illegal.

This is the problem. When you don't have consistent application of law, the system becomes non-functional. These are not hard cases to prosecute and resolve, but there are millions of them due to that lack of enforcement. The situation is exactly like the "broken window syndrome."  When you ignore problems early on they grow to unmanageable proportions. So, here we are. When caught crawling through the fence or wading the river without benefit of a legal port of entry, the "evidence" is abundant. These kinds of cases can and should be quickly resolved without releasing them to disappear into society.

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11.4 million illegal immigrants get all the press. 43 million legal immigrants fly under the radar. With a stroke of a pen we could have 54 million illegal. 54 million legal. Pick any number you want. But we have 54 million immigrants in this country.

I'm not sure what your point is. Of course the illegals get all the press; they are doing something prohibited by law. Folks embracing legal behavior don't generate press or controversy.

It almost sounds like you have problem with immigration: "43 million legal immigrants fly under the radar."
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<  presidio  >
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline catz

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2017, 10:03:10 AM »
There is so much misinformation and fear mongering...give it a rest.
Wake me when it's time to go.

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Offline Jimbow

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2017, 10:40:42 AM »
I agree with most of your points. I'm just not ready to throw out due process and innocent until proven guilty.

I like your point that it is an easy case. Fast tracking these cases would be a great improvement.

The reason I mentioned other immigrants are the impact of immigrants,  good and bad,  are often the same if they are here legally or illegally. In fact anyone working a minimum wage job or even slightly above receive of  more then they paid in. So anyone not filing a return saves us tax money. Which I believe is one reason politicians haven't taken the hard steps.

I'm frustrated we haven't come up with a better system. I'm concerned about our agriculture industry. We are already a net importer of food and it keeps getting more so. We see how a dependence on foreign oil swings or economy. We should be equally concerned about our food supply.

I'm sorry if some people find this derisive. I thought this has been a polite,  respectful exchange. I certainly have appreciated the thoughts that were shared.


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Offline Casa Grande

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2017, 10:52:39 AM »
Richard, CG, I thought the front page said no politics?   :eusa_doh:
You're right, ME. However, this has stayed pretty civilized. I'm actually really impressed with it, so far.   We could shut it down, but my gut says it is an important enough topic about the park that it can probably stay.   At least until the guns start gettin' drawn.



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Offline mule ears

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2017, 11:29:26 AM »
I agree with most of your points. I'm just not ready to throw out due process and innocent until proven guilty.

I like your point that it is an easy case. Fast tracking these cases would be a great improvement.

The reason I mentioned other immigrants are the impact of immigrants,  good and bad,  are often the same if they are here legally or illegally. In fact anyone working a minimum wage job or even slightly above receive of  more then they paid in. So anyone not filing a return saves us tax money. Which I believe is one reason politicians haven't taken the hard steps.

I'm frustrated we haven't come up with a better system. I'm concerned about our agriculture industry. We are already a net importer of food and it keeps getting more so. We see how a dependence on foreign oil swings or economy. We should be equally concerned about our food supply.

I agree with most of this, I don't think a wall will be built, or will work if built.  The "wall"  needs to be mostly legal and enforced fairly and evenly.

I'm sorry if some people find this derisive. I thought this has been a polite,  respectful exchange. I certainly have appreciated the thoughts that were shared.

OK you asked>   :eusa_hand:

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According to the punditry about election results, it's half the country plus 3 million or so  :willynilly:  that have lost their common sense. It does beg the question, though, whether these folks ever had common sense to lose. Not a lot of data about that.

Well that would be me, and I have not lost my common sense, thank you very much.  I am also a farmer and small business owner and know lots of farmers and small business owners who do have legal foreign workers H2A and others that go back every winter and or at the end of their visa stay.  Sure some don't but many of those are the higher income ones who don't want to lose their good jobs.  There is way more to it than the brain trust here on BBC can even begin to discuss well.   

Everyone needs to breath and chill.

Yep. However, some folks are so over-invested in vitriol, anger and self-righteousness (but they are tolerant....just ask them), they are going to stroke out (and then become an even greater burden on society than they already are.

When I watch the demonstrations on the news the first thing that comes to mind is: why aren't these people at work or in school? Do they have nothing other than outrage to fill their empty lives? Are they all on welfare with lots of free time and income paid for by those adults who are productive members of society?

Do they even know what the hell they are protesting? Based on their chants and signs and costumes, it appears not.

So that would be me too, see above comments.  I was demonstrating yesterday in front of one of my Senators office about the absolutely insane people nominated for cabinet positions (Sessions and DeVos yesterday, the rest are hardly any better).  Yes I have plenty to do and people to manage, a farm to run but find it important to take time to call out the lunacy that is going on in Washington including the stupid wall that will never be built.  presidio if you think the NPS is inept then hold onto your ass cause this sh?t show that is happening in DC now makes the NPS look like the most competent professionals in government.

I am headed to the park next week to breath deeply the desert air and chill, might not be too many more opportunities in the future if we let the "legal" citizens who are "running" our country keep it up.   :pissed:   :banghead:  :ecomcity:  :victory:  :victory:
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 12:36:21 PM by mule ears »
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Offline Homer67

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2017, 11:42:30 AM »
Illegals released on bail or PR bonds?  News to me.  I work in the biz and here in Hays County undocumented immigrants are detained by ICE and have been for a long time. I understand most counties in Texas do the same.

I think the Wall is yet another distraction.  I doubt it will be built, but the legislative hurdles to its construction will most certainly be removed, such as the Endangered Species Act, Antiquities Act, as well as violating some Native American Treaties. Pair this with the GOP's great desire to give away Federally protected lands - one of the first moves of this new GOP Congress - and the big picture emerges.  This Congress has already devalued these lands to zero, which will greatly affect the royalties paid to the government for these companies extracting resources that belong to all of us. like what I've said or not, it can all be researched.
Ah Big Bend, we will soon return to reacquaint ourselves in our ritual of blood, exhaustion and dehydration. How can we resist the temptation to strip ourselves of the maladies of civilization?

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Offline House Made of Dawn

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2017, 11:49:25 AM »
When even Mule Ears gets hot under the collar, you know a line has been crossed. I'd say this conversation has been 97% civil, but the other gratuituous 3% - salted in here and there - maybe not so much.

And Homer is apparently, like me, a fan of the film Chinatown. Always follow the money.
"The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts."

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Offline presidio

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2017, 11:58:33 AM »
I agree with most of your points. I'm just not ready to throw out due process and innocent until proven guilty.

I like your point that it is an easy case. Fast tracking these cases would be a great improvement.

The reason I mentioned other immigrants are the impact of immigrants,  good and bad,  are often the same if they are here legally or illegally. In fact anyone working a minimum wage job or even slightly above receive of  more then they paid in. So anyone not filing a return saves us tax money. Which I believe is one reason politicians haven't taken the hard steps.

Due process is important, my comments should not be construed otherwise by anyone. We just need to do it in a more timely and effective manner. Most politicians are cowards when it comes to fixing critical issues. Hmmm...well senator, should we work on tax reform or a soda size/junk food tax today? Wait, let's pass a memorial, affecting nothing, about a trivial issue and avoid all controversy. How about we formally recognize "it gets dark at night?" Good. Golf at 3, drinks at 5.

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I'm frustrated we haven't come up with a better system. I'm concerned about our agriculture industry. We are already a net importer of food and it keeps getting more so. We see how a dependence on foreign oil swings or economy. We should be equally concerned about our food supply.

That's news to me. We sure export a lot of food and energy is coming up with all the expanded reserves being discovered. If we are a net importer of food I've certainly missed that discussion.

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I'm sorry if some people find this derisive. I thought this has been a polite,  respectful exchange. I certainly have appreciated the thoughts that were shared.

Agreed. And a kudo to the moderators for letting it run.
_____________
<  presidio  >
_____________
Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline presidio

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2017, 12:03:52 PM »
And Homer is apparently, like me, a fan of the film Chinatown. Always follow the money.

Everything that occurs is explained by that, especially the things that seem incomprehensible at first glance.

Chinatown: superb movie.
_____________
<  presidio  >
_____________
Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline badknees

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2017, 12:43:29 PM »
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Most politicians are cowards when it comes to fixing critical issues

And slooooow!

I can agree on that.  Not jumping in on the rest of this......I'll leave it at that.
Not all those who wander are lost.
J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline dprather

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2017, 04:44:29 PM »
Instead of a wall a guest worker program that actually helps American business,  especially agriculture operate would be beneficial.
Bring back the Bracero Program!

It worked brilliantly
Leave "quit" at the car.  Embrace the trail as your friend.  Expect to enjoy yourself, and to be amazed.

 


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