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OK, so this will be controversial...

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Online dprather

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2017, 04:51:41 PM »
Just an opinion regarding hot topics.

In the past we have had really thoughtful and amazingly civil discussions about concealed (handgun) carry while backpacking and another that touched on religion. 

I am very comfortable with (semi) hot topics on here that have to do with the Bend.  Any move toward building an actual wall or toward greatly increased Border enforcement will effect those who are affected by the Bend (did I get the effect and affect right?).  As a counter example, we all probably have strong feelings one way or another about abortion, but that particular topic really is not a "Bend" topic.

I have been most impressed with the maturity of the contributing voices and with the wisdom of the moderator.

I say let us address these matters.

If necessary (so far it hasn't been) create a romper room.

« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 02:11:06 PM by dprather »
Leave "quit" at the car.  Embrace the trail as your friend.  Expect to enjoy yourself, and to be amazed.

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Offline RichardM

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2017, 05:01:14 PM »
Instead of a wall a guest worker program that actually helps American business,  especially agriculture operate would be beneficial.
Bring back the Bracero Program!

It worked brilliantly
Well, except for the racism exhibited by lots of merchants, etc. towards the workers. My grandfather benefited from that program as he used seasonal Bracero Program workers to pick cotton.

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Offline Jimbow

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2017, 05:34:43 PM »
I believe we need a total over haul of the immigration system. It should support American workers and American business. Minimum wage jobs are a drain on our treasury no matter who works them. Good paying middle class jobs are what made America great.

We put a lot of resources into educating our children. I believe we should be protecting jobs for them. Why spend a couple hundred thousand dollars educating a kid to work a minimum wage job when we have millions of people wanting that opportunity?

But let's look at all of the immigrants. Let's look at the entire picture.

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Offline iCe

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2017, 06:09:41 PM »
Quote
We sure export a lot of food and energy


Corn is not food. It is however, allegedly, a source of energy. Most good farm land has been ruined...


Craig Childs Apocalyptic Planet is a great read. The chapters on the cornfields in Ohio would have been an eye opener if I hadn't already read The Omnivore's Dilemma.

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Offline Casa Grande

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2017, 06:42:37 PM »
I am a conservative-libertarian, if there is such a thing, but most of my friends are liberal (they're more fun to play with).  It makes for interesting conversations sometimes, but I keep my politics over on my Facebook page. I like to poke at my political adversaries sometimes, ok, a lot of times.

I don't get too much into things here because I can come across rather curt.  So, I'm just gonna keep reading. I'm liking the discussion so far.  I respect and love everyone here, even though I may not agree with you.


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Offline iCe

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2017, 06:54:46 PM »
I have a friend that is decidedly left leaning. He teaches a printing class in New Mexico. When I met him the first time, in his class, somewhere along the way a fellow student broached the subject of politics. The discussion was lively and polite. All in all it went fine. Toward the end I told my friend that he would be surprised at how close we all were in our beliefs. Nobody in the group was extreme so it was an easy call. So we went down the topics that were hot at the time (not much different than today other than now it's ok to bash the President) and every one of us found common ground. I'm sure the left leaners still voted left and the rest voted right later on but that was more about the "team winning" than the belief system. I called him the other day (about a printer) and opened the conversation with "did you get your Trump hat yet?!" and he very quickly said "No! I was hoping you would bring me one from Texas"  :great:  I like it when someone has a quick wit.


Somehow we've turned politicians into celebrities. The aren't, they are public servants. We turn the political parties into football teams, complete with cheerleaders and commercials. We end up looking like Dallas Cowboys and Houston Texans fans arguing over who's going to win the Superbowl instead of voters.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 08:06:43 PM by iCe »

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Offline elhombre

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2017, 07:30:45 PM »

Somehow we've turned politicians into celebrities. The aren't, they are public servants. We turn the political parties into football teams, complete with cheerleaders and commercials. We end up looking like Dallas Cowboys and Houston Texans fans arguing over who's going to win the Superbowl instead of voters.

Couldn't agree more.  We finally have a leader who is not a career politician.   The country has been ruled by the same ilk for a long time.   Many are fearful and protesting because there is a new animal in charge.    Criminals walk among us with the blessing of our government and we have ~$20 trillion debt to give to our children.  We must stand strong and sour the milk.  Uphold laws and see how it turns out.  If upholding laws destroys the country, then ......
First Russian Collusion, then Obstruction, then illegal payment to Stormy Daniels, now no formal vote on impeachment for a 30 min. phone call to Ukraine

No evidence, just more secret investigations and Shifty lies perpetuating insane blinding anger

They can't win with ideas, They only offer Hate

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Offline mule ears

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2017, 07:34:57 AM »

Somehow we've turned politicians into celebrities. The aren't, they are public servants. We turn the political parties into football teams, complete with cheerleaders and commercials. We end up looking like Dallas Cowboys and Houston Texans fans arguing over who's going to win the Superbowl instead of voters.

Couldn't agree more.  We finally have a leader who is not a career politician.   The country has been ruled by the same ilk for a long time.   Many are fearful and protesting because there is a new animal in charge.    Criminals walk among us with the blessing of our government and we have ~$20 trillion debt to give to our children.  We must stand strong and sour the milk.  Uphold laws and see how it turns out.  If upholding laws destroys the country, then ......

Sigh, I should just walk away from this discussion and especially ignore elhombre but there is just so much wrong with many of the above statements.  I can agree that most of the politicians are feckless or not held responsible or are untouchable (maybe those are the "criminals walking among us"?) and a shake up needs to happen mostly by stopping the gerrymandering that has gone on but not by handing power over to a "new animal" (I agree with that description too) that doesn't have a clue.

I would have been back here earlier but I was out running a chainsaw all day because I am one of the blue collar, white working class folks that did not fall for Lyin' Donald's BS and now have to deal with the repercussions.  I too would like for us to uphold the laws but not in a way that tears the country down.  What the new "leader"? (sounds like Kim Jung Il) has in mind has little to do with laws and so far is building the least transparent and most conflict of interest ridden government yet.  A bigger better Swamp for sure, it will be huuuuge!

I would say we all need to make sure we get quality information and not fall for the biased sources on both left and right, make our own informed decisions not what ever drivel the extremes pass around.  This is a good place to start



As to the wall (kind of the discussion here because we don't talk politics  ;) ) it is mostly a distraction from other things the "leader" wants us to not pay attention to.

1.  it will likely never be built
2.  Mexico will not pay for it
3.  what ever is built will be paid for with your tax dollars (let's see that would add to the much feared deficit that the last Republican administration ran up with that war of theirs and their collapse of the economy)
4.  it would be an environmental nightmare much less an eyesore.
5.  it won't work, might keep a few folks out but the cartels will laugh and blow through or under as long as rich white folks continue to use illegal drugs

But while the Con-Man in Chief has us distracted the other politicians are working on selling off presidio's BLM land and opening the parks for drilling.  Don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain or watch their hands while they move the shells around on the table.

I am neither particularly left or right, I fall down the middle of the above chart.  I do believe in paying attention, being informed and making my own decisions.  There now I feel better.   :icon_biggrin:
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 09:15:29 AM by mule ears »
temperatures exceed 100 degrees F
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no shade, no water
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Offline badknees

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2017, 08:21:43 AM »
One thing I will opine - America was strong enough to survive or thrive under 44 presidents.  Some were outstanding and others of dubious character and quality. We'll survive the 45th. Time will tell which category 45 will fall in. There is another election in 4 years, let's get on with it.
Not all those who wander are lost.
J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline iCe

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2017, 08:25:50 AM »

I doubt if you're the only blue collar worker to grace the pages of this forum. I'm definitely in that camp however everyone I work with comes here legally. My "range", until recently was from McAllen to San Antonio to pretty much all of South Louisiana. Down south (TX) we work with contractors that have workers with green cards frequently. I've found them to be knowledgable, speak much better English than I do Spanish, and overall add value to the companies that they work for. I don't think anyone is complaining about legal immigrants but I might have missed that. The big froo froo over the "muslim ban" is kind of ludicrous. 90% of the Muslim population doesn't live in the 7 countries on the "hold" list.


I too have noticed that the illegal population has disappeared. The only difference is that I didn't have to go run a chainsaw to get work done (actually I do but when I get ready to trim stuff around here it rains), I'm just not able to get a really good taco at the local store and I can understand the high school kid at the drive up window better. And I miss the conversations that I had with the taco lady in the morning). They'll be back...

In the chart below the Mainstream News is characterized as "Minimal Partisan Bias"  :shock:  NYT, NPR, Washington Post?!?! Why isn't Facebook in the little bubble in the middle? Goebbels would be proud of those so called news outlets (the entire list not just the main stream bubble). Media bias is an oxymoron. It's always been biased.


I agree with all of the points below other than I would add that the fence already exists in places and it is an eyesore where it exists. It's on par with wind generators. They are both ugly and neither generates revenue. Wind generators at least generate over subsidized electricity so they "sort of" have something to show for being there but if not for subsidies they would operate in the red. The wall adds no value...


1.  it will likely never be built2.  Mexico will not pay for it3.  what ever is built will be paid for with your tax dollars (let's see that would add to the much feared deficit that the last Republican administration ran up with that war of theirs)4.  it would be an environmental nightmare much less an eyesore.


I work in the oil business and I would not be in favor or drilling in Nat Parks and I don't believe any of my coworkers would want that. Especially those that live and work in Alaska and Wyoming. We all like to play in the great outdoors too. I definitely would not be in favor of selling public lands. That reeks of backroom deals for someone to have their own private ranch at bargain basement prices.
Everyone says they are in the middle but its kind of like saying your in the middle of an atom. There's no such thing as the middle of an atom, it's constantly moving and the act of measuring it's position changes the location...
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 10:07:04 AM by iCe »

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Offline iCe

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2017, 08:29:59 AM »
One thing I will opine - America was strong enough to survive or thrive under 44 presidents.  Some were outstanding and others of dubious character and quality. We'll survive the 45th. Time will tell which category 45 will fall in. There is another election in 4 years, let's get on with it.


Yup... much to say but I don't know if there's a way to keep it civil so... Yup

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Offline mr.bean5150

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2017, 09:57:22 AM »
 It might be a good time to bring back the United States-Mexico International Peace Park idea started in the 30's. Transboundary protected area's eliminate any man made boundary, fence or preventing of access of either side in the designated area. I believe the Roosevelt Campbello park is set up this way with Canada.
"Do or Do Not, There Is No Try"
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Offline RichardM

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2017, 10:07:22 AM »
I would say we all need to make sure we get quality information and not fall for the biased sources on both left and right, make our own informed decisions not what ever drivel the extremes pass around.  This is a good place to start


Where do the Alpine Avalanche and Terlingua Moon fall on that chart?

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Offline presidio

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2017, 12:10:47 PM »
Well, except for the racism exhibited by lots of merchants, etc. towards the workers.

Much can be legislated (some needed, some not so much), but you cannot legislate attitudes. You either think right, or you don't.

Since racism is a learned behavior, it can be unlearned. Sometimes, it happens solely by a moment of personal revelation:
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2011/06/23/skinhead%E2%80%99s-story-bryon-widner-and-%E2%80%98erasing-hate%E2%80%99

What the folks who "don't think right" don't understand is that everyone is who they are (racially, culturally, etc.) purely by accident of birth. You don't get to choose, you just are. Therefore, a racist could (we're going parallel universe here, just for illustration) have been born as something they despise, whereupon their entire world and view and attitudes would be something other than what they now are.
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline presidio

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Re: OK, so this will be controversial...
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2017, 12:13:30 PM »
I am a conservative-libertarian, if there is such a thing,

There is, and there's at least two of us.
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<  presidio  >
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

 


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