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Park Overcrowding

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Offline DuneYeti

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Park Overcrowding
« on: August 04, 2017, 07:08:46 AM »
While keeping the source in mind their are some facts that might be of interest in here. http://e360.yale.edu/features/greenlock-a-visitor-crush-is-overwhelming-americas-national-parks 
"The less you want, the richer you are."

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Offline catz

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Re: Park Overcrowding
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2017, 10:00:12 AM »
Is "the source" the NPS or the Yale School of Forestry?  And why should I keep that in mind?
Wake me when it's time to go.

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Offline fartymarty

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Re: Park Overcrowding
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2017, 11:42:36 AM »
Regardless of source, those photos are definitely worrisome:





Spring break photos? I hope the BIBE never gets like that.
Fort Worth

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Offline presidio

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Re: Park Overcrowding
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2017, 12:28:48 PM »
The NPS always is complaining about something and their solution, every time, is higher fees and ever-increasing limitations on use.

The agency whines about tourist overload; it whines when the tourists don't come; it whines when politicians and the public don't give them the deferential treatment they are convinced they deserve; it whines when there is bad press (worried about their image rather than why the bad press is occurring). All the while, the employees are offended that anyone at all comes to THEIR parks and the resulting treatment of the folks whom make it possible for them to even be there in their FantasylandTM pretty much says it all.

Whenever the NPS complains, it is important to remember the organization was created as a tourist entertainment function and it solidly continues in that frame of mind and operational mode, despite all their fervid claims to the contrary about being something other than what they really are. The NPS solely is in charge of what they are and do and, demonstrably, they have zero interest in changing anything about it.

A recent article in High Country News about the Grand Staircase-Escalante (GSE) National Monument (a BLM area) highlights the very important difference between NPS and BLM (and USFS) areas. While the article is about the problems of politics, money and management there were two interesting and telling statements to be found.

July 10, 2017
http://www.hcn.org/articles/monuments-how-grand-staircase-escalante-was-set-up-to-fail

Quote
At 1.9 million acres — 53 times the size of nearby Bryce Canyon National Park, bigger than Rhode Island and Delaware combined — the Grand Staircase was to have been the premier research monument in the national system, an outdoor lab for the practice of science.

And, the recently retired Assistant Manager (that would be the equivalent of Assistant Superintendent in the NPS) had this advice:

Quote
“I tell people you don’t need a trail. You don’t need signs. You don’t need maps. Just go out and find your own way,” she told me. “Sit down, listen, observe, contemplate, be in the place where you are.” The Grand Staircase is not about the fast-food vistas of the national parks, she said. “People want to drive to a viewpoint, then drive to another. This place requires effort. Time. Patience.”

That closely parallels my own observations and suggestions made on this forum about NPS tourists being so needy and dependent upon the NPS telling them what to do and see, expecting the entertaining facilities and programs, and who repeatedly demonstrate they are incapable of doing things without the NPS being there to hold their hands.

There are those who feel these BLM/USFS monuments should be given to the NPS and are offended that the NPS does not control all (or at least what they consider the "best") public lands. Likely, a very large number of NPS employees feel that way, but there's an unfortunate enormous segment of the brainwashed public which also has a matching desire, so that the agency has more acreage with which to accommodate the crush of outdoor imbeciles clogging the parks. Such a transfer of control only would result in an expansion to those areas of the NPS style of user intimidation, prohibitions, fee structures and hand holding to a larger area. It would in no way change or solve the underlying problem of the NPS: a tourist ENTERTAINMENT industry. It's not needed nor wanted nor appreciated outside the NPS.

As I have noted before, compared to BLM/USFS managed areas, the NPS is a literal grease spot of acreage (see the comparison above just for Bryce Canyon), but the agency  gets all the adulation (unwarranted) and attractive media coverage. The BLM/USFS areas exist in relative anonymity, but let the NPS get an area and throw up a sign announcing their hegemony over a piece of ground, and customers immediately swarm the place like flies are attracted to sewage. It would seem a national monument not mismanaged by the NPS is not a real national monument and therefore unworthy of attention. That's fine by me as it keeps these places free of the inept.

I've been to GSE and it is at least as impressive as Big Bend (or any other NPS area), not to mention FAR larger than most NPS tourist congregation spots. You pretty much have it to yourself but will have to figure out what to do on your own. Consequently, as a national monument without the NPS tag, the place is unencumbered with the needy seeking their next passport stamp and "fast-food vista."
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<  presidio  >
_____________
Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline dprather

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Re: Park Overcrowding
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2017, 12:42:55 PM »
Regardless of source, those photos are definitely worrisome:





Spring break photos? I hope the BIBE never gets like that.

Have you ever tried to get a backcountry permit during spring break at BIBE?  It is at least that.

Leave "quit" at the car.  Embrace the trail as your friend.  Expect to enjoy yourself and to be amazed.

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Offline presidio

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Re: Park Overcrowding
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2017, 01:05:39 PM »
Regardless of source, those photos are definitely worrisome:





Spring break photos? I hope the BIBE never gets like that.

Have you ever tried to get a backcountry permit during spring break at BIBE?  It is at least that.

Looking at this kind of photographic documentation always makes me wonder exactly what these folks are seeking. It certainly isn't solitude, uniqueness or a quality experience. It does, however, suggest a subconscious expression of safety in numbers. Excepting the truly trivial percentage of people who get more than a quarter mile from developments in NPS areas, that seems to be a common trait of NPS tourists. Bring the safety and comfort of urban areas to wild (well, in the NPS arena, semi-wild) places.

Take away the canyon and mountain and what you have is nothing more than the queue for rides at Disneyland/Six Flags. Wow! It really is all about entertainment.
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<  presidio  >
_____________
Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline ds9writer

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Re: Park Overcrowding
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2017, 02:23:20 PM »


Wow, one person slips and the all go over!
You don't travel to see different things,
You travel to see things differently.

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Offline presidio

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Re: Park Overcrowding
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2017, 03:30:02 PM »
_____________
<  presidio  >
_____________
Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline dkerr24

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Re: Park Overcrowding
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2017, 04:05:26 PM »
You just gotta know when to go.  I've been to Zion and Grand Canyon in late October, and only had to deal with some crowding around the bus stops.  Once I got 50 yards away from the stops, I hiked in relative solitude.  The North Rim of the Grand Canyon is awesome once they shut down the lodge.  You can walk to any of the major overlooks and have the place to yourself.

Never figured out why anyone wants to go to BIBE during Texas Spring Break.  Go 2 weeks before or after and have all the solitude you want.

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Offline presidio

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Re: Park Overcrowding
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2017, 07:21:53 PM »
You just gotta know when to go.

Never figured out why anyone wants to go to BIBE during Texas Spring Break.

Exactly correct!
_____________
<  presidio  >
_____________
Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Online House Made of Dawn

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Re: Park Overcrowding
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2017, 08:36:40 PM »
The NPS always is complaining about something and their solution, every time, is higher fees and ever-increasing limitations on use.

The agency whines about tourist overload; it whines when the tourists don't come; it whines when politicians and the public don't give them the deferential treatment they are convinced they deserve; it whines when there is bad press (worried about their image rather than why the bad press is occurring). All the while, the employees are offended that anyone at all comes to THEIR parks and the resulting treatment of the folks whom make it possible for them to even be there in their FantasylandTM pretty much says it all.

Whenever the NPS complains, it is important to remember the organization was created as a tourist entertainment function and it solidly continues in that frame of mind and operational mode, despite all their fervid claims to the contrary about being something other than what they really are. The NPS solely is in charge of what they are and do and, demonstrably, they have zero interest in changing anything about it.

A recent article in High Country News about the Grand Staircase-Escalante (GSE) National Monument (a BLM area) highlights the very important difference between NPS and BLM (and USFS) areas. While the article is about the problems of politics, money and management there were two interesting and telling statements to be found.

July 10, 2017
http://www.hcn.org/articles/monuments-how-grand-staircase-escalante-was-set-up-to-fail

Quote
At 1.9 million acres — 53 times the size of nearby Bryce Canyon National Park, bigger than Rhode Island and Delaware combined — the Grand Staircase was to have been the premier research monument in the national system, an outdoor lab for the practice of science.

And, the recently retired Assistant Manager (that would be the equivalent of Assistant Superintendent in the NPS) had this advice:

Quote
“I tell people you don’t need a trail. You don’t need signs. You don’t need maps. Just go out and find your own way,” she told me. “Sit down, listen, observe, contemplate, be in the place where you are.” The Grand Staircase is not about the fast-food vistas of the national parks, she said. “People want to drive to a viewpoint, then drive to another. This place requires effort. Time. Patience.”

That closely parallels my own observations and suggestions made on this forum about NPS tourists being so needy and dependent upon the NPS telling them what to do and see, expecting the entertaining facilities and programs, and who repeatedly demonstrate they are incapable of doing things without the NPS being there to hold their hands.

There are those who feel these BLM/USFS monuments should be given to the NPS and are offended that the NPS does not control all (or at least what they consider the "best") public lands. Likely, a very large number of NPS employees feel that way, but there's an unfortunate enormous segment of the brainwashed public which also has a matching desire, so that the agency has more acreage with which to accommodate the crush of outdoor imbeciles clogging the parks. Such a transfer of control only would result in an expansion to those areas of the NPS style of user intimidation, prohibitions, fee structures and hand holding to a larger area. It would in no way change or solve the underlying problem of the NPS: a tourist ENTERTAINMENT industry. It's not needed nor wanted nor appreciated outside the NPS.

As I have noted before, compared to BLM/USFS managed areas, the NPS is a literal grease spot of acreage (see the comparison above just for Bryce Canyon), but the agency  gets all the adulation (unwarranted) and attractive media coverage. The BLM/USFS areas exist in relative anonymity, but let the NPS get an area and throw up a sign announcing their hegemony over a piece of ground, and customers immediately swarm the place like flies are attracted to sewage. It would seem a national monument not mismanaged by the NPS is not a real national monument and therefore unworthy of attention. That's fine by me as it keeps these places free of the inept.

I've been to GSE and it is at least as impressive as Big Bend (or any other NPS area), not to mention FAR larger than most NPS tourist congregation spots. You pretty much have it to yourself but will have to figure out what to do on your own. Consequently, as a national monument without the NPS tag, the place is unencumbered with the needy seeking their next passport stamp and "fast-food vista."

Vitriol notwithstanding, I agree with Presidio on the relative merits of national parks and BLM monuments and land (somewhat less so on national forests...those are a whole 'nother ball of wax).  On the other hand, I understand why yahoos, as citizens and taxpayers, have a right and a need for "managed nature experiences". Personally, I wouldn't be caught dead in one of those traffic jams. I like solitude and have almost uniformly found NPS personnel to be amenable and helpful in assisting or simply allowing me to go far afield in the national parks. Your mileage may differ.

One thing that Presidio and I definitely agree on, though, is our aversion to whining. It quickly overstays its welcome.
"The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts."

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Offline TexasAggieHiker

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Re: Park Overcrowding
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2017, 12:07:40 AM »
Never figured out why anyone wants to go to BIBE during Texas Spring Break.  Go 2 weeks before or after and have all the solitude you want.
because people have jobs, children have school, college kids have class.  not everyone can just take off and go whenever they feel like it.  sometimes you have to plan recreation around your everyday life.  sometimes you have to plan around holidays weekends to maximize your time, just like hoards of other people.  I fault no one for going out when they can.  going to Big Bend and spending time outdoors even during spring break is still better than not going at all.
I go when I can.  I'd much rather go to BIBE during spring break, thanksgiving, and christmas than not go at all.

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Offline dprather

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Re: Park Overcrowding
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2017, 07:29:58 AM »
You just gotta know when to go.

Never figured out why anyone wants to go to BIBE during Texas Spring Break.

Exactly correct!

Us retired/semiretired/in charge guys have that option.  Others do not.
Leave "quit" at the car.  Embrace the trail as your friend.  Expect to enjoy yourself and to be amazed.

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Offline Hang10er

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Re: Park Overcrowding
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2017, 05:23:56 PM »
My kids are in "year round" school.  They get a big shorter summer but they get a week off in late August, October, long break for Christmas, week in February and April (I think that's about right).  The thing I love is you can see the vacation/travel opportunities.  BiBE, Disney, all those places were you are usually forced to go with EVERYONE else is wide open.  For the last 2 years, October has been Big Bend month and sometimes again in February. 

The only thing that would kill year round school for us would be if all the other schools went to it!!

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Offline Slimkitty

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Re: Park Overcrowding
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2017, 07:39:57 PM »
My kids are in "year round" school.  They get a big shorter summer but they get a week off in late August, October, long break for Christmas, week in February and April (I think that's about right).  The thing I love is you can see the vacation/travel opportunities.  BiBE, Disney, all those places were you are usually forced to go with EVERYONE else is wide open.  For the last 2 years, October has been Big Bend month and sometimes again in February. 

The only thing that would kill year round school for us would be if all the other schools went to it!!

Nice!


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