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Senate Backs Allowing Loaded Guns in National Parks

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Offline bjbriggs

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Offline presidio

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Re: Senate Backs Allowing Loaded Guns in National Parks
« Reply #61 on: June 10, 2009, 07:14:04 PM »
settle down now

Aww, he's just excited that I'm back and hasn't worked the awkwardness out of his exuberance. He'll settle down as soon as the adrenaline rush wears off  :rolling: :rolling:
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Offline presidio

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Re: Senate Backs Allowing Loaded Guns in National Parks
« Reply #62 on: June 10, 2009, 07:38:57 PM »
WASHINGTON A law enforcement official said Wednesday that James Von Brunn, an elderly white supremacist, is being investigated as the prime suspect in the shooting at the U.S. Holocaust Museum.

While banners will bemoan this incident as another example of why guns should be eliminated, what I see is a case of a predator (tiny-minded, prejudiced, a coward and ignorant-as-s**t) going where he knows his victims will be disarmed by government edict. He didn't try this in a DC police station where, despite the assurances of local officials that citizens are safe, the police feel it necessary to carry the weapons they want to deny city residents.

I've been to the Holocaust Museum and remember the guard that was killed. Some of these guards are armed but, clearly, in the context of being a tourist site they are not prepared for this kind of thing. One news article indicates the shooter approached with a long gun visible and began firing once in the building. If the gun was visible then there certainly was a delayed reaction by the guards, probably one of disbelief of what they were seeing. This is what intensive screening of purses and backpacks gets you...complacency since usually nothing is found. However, it also points up a fundamental flaw of security checkpoints...they will not deter an individual determined to commit mayhem and the focus is on people being checked, not those approaching. While such points present an obstacle to the free flow of traffic they do not prevent something like today's event. Condolences to the guard's family and here's to swift sure justice for the piece of trash that caused his death.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 07:41:38 PM by presidio »
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Offline presidio

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Re: Senate Backs Allowing Loaded Guns in National Parks
« Reply #63 on: June 10, 2009, 08:18:23 PM »
Coincidentally, in a New Mexico paper today was an article by a local female commentator. This article clearly differentiates between responsible and irresponsible gun ownership and use....

Age can be a weapon
Welda McKinley Grider
Posted: 06/09/2009 05:00:56 PM MDT

I grew up around guns and I've carried a gun since I was 19. I've only pulled my gun once in that amount of time.

I was "checking waters" when I came upon three young men who were obviously drunk.

They told me they were "hunting." Since I am not a hunter I couldn't think of any season open in late summer. I asked them to leave.

They said they had the owner's permission. I asked who that was (since my father owned the ranch at that time). They gave me a name I had never heard of and I grew up here. I again asked them to leave.

This would be the irresponsible part--
Have you ever noticed it's the boy in the middle who has all the smart ideas? He told the other two, "We've got a gun, I ain't a scared of her, let's make her dance."

Drunks always like to dance, so the other two boys thought that was a good idea. I'm sure I could have out run them. I'm sure I could have talked sense to them. I'm sure I could have done a lot of things.


Now, here comes responsible ownership--
Instead I just laid my .38 on the pickup window and said, "I can kill at least two of you before you get your rifle out from between your legs."

And...proof that deterrence works--
All the blood in their face left and I guess it went straight to their feet because the driver hit the gas pedal so hard it took him about 100 yards before he remembered he was in the granny gear.


...unrelated musings, from whence the article title came, edited out...

Welda Grider is a Lincoln County native, ranch owner and packs a pistol. (and she's at least in her late 50s now)
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline Casa Grande

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Offline bjbriggs

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Re: Senate Backs Allowing Loaded Guns in National Parks
« Reply #65 on: June 10, 2009, 10:49:51 PM »
Clint Smith, Director of Thunder Ranch, is part drill
Instructor, and part stand up comic. Here are a few of his observations
On tactics, firearms, self defense and life as we know it in the
Civilized world.
"The handgun would not be my choice of weapon if I knew I was
Going to a fight....I'd choose a rifle, a shotgun, an RPG or an atomic
Bomb instead."
    "The two most important rules in a gunfight are: always cheat
And always win."
   "Every time I teach a class, I discover I don't know something."
    "Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."
     "Make your attacker advance through a wall of bullets. I may get Killed with my own gun, but he's gonna have to beat me to death with it, Cause it's going to be empty."
     "If you're not shootin', you should be loadin'. If you're not Loadin, you should be movin', if you're not movin', someone's gonna cut Your head off and put it on a stick."
    "When you reload in low light encounters, don't put your Flashlight in your back pocket.. If you light yourself up, you'll look Like an angel or the tooth fairy...and you're gonna be one of 'em pretty
Soon."
    "Do something. It may be wrong, but do something."
   "Nothing adds a little class to a sniper course like a babe in a Ghilliesuit."
   "Shoot what's available, as long as it's available, until Something else becomes available."
    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's Ridiculous.. If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid For."
    "Don't shoot fast, shoot good."
     "You can say 'stop' or 'alto' or use any other word you think Will work but I've found that a large bore muzzle pointed at someone's Head is pretty much the universal language."
   "You have the rest of your life to solve your problems. How long You live depends on how well you do it."
    "You cannot save the planet. You may be able to save yourself And your family."
   "Thunder Ranch will be here as long as you'll have us or until Someone makes us go away and either way it will be exciting."
   More Excellent Gun Wisdom.......  The purpose of fighting is to Win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more Important than the shield, and skill is more important than either.
The Final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.
   
    1. Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to Fight, he'll just kill you.
   
    2. If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
   
    3. I carry a gun cause a cop is too heavy.
   
    4. When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.
   
    5. A reporter did a human-interest piece on the Texas Rangers.
The reporter recognized the Colt Model 1911 the Ranger was carrying and Asked him 'Why do you carry a 45?' The Ranger responded, 'Because they
Don't make a 46.'
   
    6. An armed man will kill an unarmed man with monotonous Regularity.
   
    7. The old sheriff was attending an awards dinner when a lady Commented on his wearing his sidearm. 'Sheriff, I see you have your Pistol. Are you expecting trouble?' 'No ma'am. If I were expecting Trouble, I would have brought my rifle.'
   
    8. Beware the man who only has one gun. He probably knows how to Use it!  :icon_smile: :icon_smile: :icon_smile:

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Offline jeffblaylock

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Re: Senate Backs Allowing Loaded Guns in National Parks
« Reply #66 on: June 11, 2009, 01:54:16 AM »
However, it also points up a fundamental flaw of security checkpoints...they will not deter an individual determined to commit mayhem and the focus is on people being checked, not those approaching. While such points present an obstacle to the free flow of traffic they do not prevent something like today's event.

I've pushed back on presidio before (and will again) for his general lack of contributions to this site, BUT this is a terrific, though unrelated to Big Bend, observation. The typical day of anyone charged with protecting this Nation and its citizens is one defined largely by BOREDOM. String enough of those days together, and all one's training vanishes when a real emergency presents itself. I've seen it myself. It happened at this museum, which I've also been to. I know several law enforcement folks who can tell you stories about when they said, "Is this really happening?"

On this overall issue of guns, let me put it this way. It's a non-issue to me. Here's why: I don't worry about people who subject themselves to the bureaurcratic regime of obtaining a concealed carry permit. Never have. It's the folks who don't do this that worry me. While I personally don't believe guns belong in public lands (or buildings), I don't worry if someone with a valid, current "concealed carry" permit has one. Such people don't commit acts of terrorism or mass murder. Criminals commit murder. Terrorists commit mayhem. There is no permit for either.

Back to MY point ... how we deal with randomness defines us, because the universe itself is quite cruel and indifferent, and random. Our faith helps clear the clutter of randomness at worst, and guides us through the darkness at best. Shame on those guards who let him walk in brandishing a weapon, but I understand how they HAD to go through that "Is this Happening" process. It's a very real phenomenon to put aside one's training ... and instincts ... when the facts at hand just don't add up right.

Sorry for my unnecessary ramble, and odd agreement with presidio, but I AGREE this incident is NOT a call for more gun controls. It is likewise not a call for looser gun controls. If anything, it's a reminder that law enforcement and our soldiers need to be ever vigilant, and ever poised to do their jobs, at every waking moment, because we depend on it.
Jeff Blaylock
Austin, Texas

"We'll be back, someday soon. We will return, someday, and when we do the gritty
splendor and the complicated grandeur of Big Bend will still be here. Waiting for us."--Ed Abbey

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Offline presidio

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Re: Senate Backs Allowing Loaded Guns in National Parks
« Reply #67 on: June 11, 2009, 06:38:12 PM »
However, it also points up a fundamental flaw of security checkpoints...they will not deter an individual determined to commit mayhem and the focus is on people being checked, not those approaching. While such points present an obstacle to the free flow of traffic they do not prevent something like today's event.

I've pushed back on presidio before (and will again) for his general lack of contributions to this site, BUT this is a terrific, though unrelated to Big Bend, observation.

Yay!!  :eusa_clap: However, I'm not clear about lack of contributions, unless you are referring to the fact that I post almost no photos.

Quote
Shame on those guards who let him walk in brandishing a weapon, but I understand how they HAD to go through that "Is this Happening" process. It's a very real phenomenon to put aside one's training ... and instincts ... when the facts at hand just don't add up right.

If anything, it's a reminder that law enforcement and our soldiers need to be ever vigilant, and ever poised to do their jobs, at every waking moment, because we depend on it.

The guards at the museum who were slow to react, likely will be troubled by some level of guilt going forward. It won't be helped by the niggling official 20-20 hindsight of those who weren't there, have never faced deadly threats and almost certainly wouldn't have performed any better had they been. Such is the nature of finger-pointing when incidents occur.

Yes, the problem IS complacency and no amount of training will overcome the gradual deterioration of alertness. This sort of situation is exacerbated by the current state of affairs, which is to keep the country in a constant state of panic about terrorism; the 'Boy Who Cried Wolf' institutionalized and codified.

After 9|11 we have lived under an elevated sense of dread, at least officially. Most folks I run into are considerably less worried, but then they don't have to answer the hindsight questioning why they let something happen, which is why we have all these silly, ineffective restrictions on civil liberties. They will still be questioned, but it will be about the one thing they didn't do which will be so obviously deficient when the review occurs but which never could have been foreseen by anyone beforehand. Such is the peril of being expected to protect everyone from everything, everywhere.

When was the last time anyone really thought about this? The best example? The idiotic threat level color code system. Since 9|11 the general state of alertness (but really it's the fear/panic state) has never been below yellow. At all airports it has been at orange since day one and occasionally has gone red usually for unsubstantiated reasons. I don't depend on officials to keep me safe, I depend on my own sense of awareness/survival. It's almost comical to hear the airport announcements about security being at code orange and it's plainly evident 99.99% of travelers simply aren't paying any attention to it. But, it makes the 'protectors' feel good about their job, I guess.

What does it all mean? Absolutely nothing. You cannot keep a population at an elevated state of watchfulness when EVERYTHING is purported to be critical. Furthermore, despite the official levels of alertness, nothing has happened. Some would point to the extreme effectiveness and abilities of those charged with making sure these things don't again occur. I hardly think that's really the case. National security is no different from any other governmental function and this iteration is no less exempt from the bumbling and mis-starts that plague every governmental program at every level. Nor is it luck that has kept another incident from occurring. 

What actually has prevented another 9|11, to date, is a somewhat elevated awareness at ports of entry about who is coming into the country (remember, all the 9|11 murderers entered through large northeastern cities and all passed through customs and immigration...where a bunch of folks were demonstrably complacent, unalert and simply didn't do their jobs--and now we all get to pay for it forever) and the fact that there are two very large bodies of water called oceans that do more to protect us than most of the official efforts. Yes, you can walk in undetected from Canada or Mexico but you still have to cross oceans in order to get there. That continental isolation plays a very large role is dramatically pointed out by the events that unfold in Europe every so often since you can walk there if you have to in order to get in. No one should mistake those incidents for a lack of commitment on the part of the governments thusly affected. They are doing everything they can to prevent such incidents and likely are employing the same procedures and tactics the US government does; they just don't have the benefit of several thousand miles of water to isolate them from the wackos farther east.

Until we get past this culture of fear that pervades all forms of transportation and affects entering any level of governmental building or large public venue like Disneyland, I would argue we are and will continue to be less safe than if we stopped the mind numbing policy of continually revving up dire existential threats that achieve exactly the opposite of the intended result.

And, while on the topic, I can't help but point out AGAIN, the 9|11 terrorists came through legal ports of entry and were officially vetted by inspectors. Boquillas is such a threat in that context that this part of the border had to be choked off from tourists yet still there is no one really watching it. That says it all about the agenda. Take actions that look good but achieve nothing.
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline Roy

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Re: Senate Backs Allowing Loaded Guns in National Parks
« Reply #68 on: June 12, 2009, 08:53:42 PM »
So, Fred.

You disagree with...  nagging question.... but maybe it kept us safe...
Nice to see you audited Semantic BS 101






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Offline jeffblaylock

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Re: Senate Backs Allowing Loaded Guns in National Parks
« Reply #69 on: June 12, 2009, 09:57:49 PM »
I'm not clear about lack of contributions, unless you are referring to the fact that I post almost no photos.

Or trip reports. Or advice to folks who ask questions about Big Bend. Or much of anything which applies specifically to Big Bend National Park and the surrounding area.

The dissertations on idiotic federal policies, bashing the NPS specifically, glorifying BLM without ever actually discussing a visit to any of its land, promoting guns, and encouraging the other trolls to offer similar, off-topic tirades -- it's arguable those aren't contributions.

But at least you recognize that Homero would like you to post more photos. Admitting the problem is the first step toward solving it. :eusa_clap:
Jeff Blaylock
Austin, Texas

"We'll be back, someday soon. We will return, someday, and when we do the gritty
splendor and the complicated grandeur of Big Bend will still be here. Waiting for us."--Ed Abbey

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Offline bjbriggs

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Re: Senate Backs Allowing Loaded Guns in National Parks
« Reply #70 on: June 12, 2009, 11:11:12 PM »
I guess I'm a troll.......I thought this topic was about allowing guns in National Parks........I'm new to this site......I was just adding stuff I thought was interesting.....Sor ry

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Offline Casa Grande

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Re: Senate Backs Allowing Loaded Guns in National Parks
« Reply #71 on: June 12, 2009, 11:15:07 PM »
I guess I'm a troll.......

No, that would be this guy.....

I also do not blame anyone for 911 except the men that did it.

very dangerous,  naive.......  :eusa_naughty:

......and......

 :offtopic:


« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 11:24:11 PM by Vista Grande »

 


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