Big Bend Chat

Big Bend in the News => National Park News => Topic started by: mule ears on March 26, 2018, 04:20:59 PM

Title: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: mule ears on March 26, 2018, 04:20:59 PM
2018 Superintendents Compendium (https://www.nps.gov/bibe/learn/management/upload/2018-BIBE-Superintendents-Compendium.pdf)

Without the old one to compare to it looks more streamlined but I don't really note any big changes.  The requirement for a hard sided bear canister vs. a soft one like the Ursack All white 29 is not clear and in my reading of it it would be accepted because it is OK by the IGBC and they only say "a container that will prevent bears or other wildlife from acquiring the items" but then again they only mention the IGBC list on the park website (https://www.nps.gov/bibe/planyourvisit/bc_foodstorage.htm) and not in the compendium.

Time for a presidio comparison chart.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: Jim on March 26, 2018, 04:39:29 PM
This PDF will have to be OCR'ed to be automatically compared.  Its pages are images, not text.  :(
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: RichardM on March 26, 2018, 05:24:41 PM
This PDF will have to be OCR'ed to be automatically compared.  Its pages are images, not text.  :(
I think they do that just to piss us off (or maybe just me).
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: badknees on March 26, 2018, 05:40:48 PM
This PDF will have to be OCR'ed to be automatically compared.  Its pages are images, not text.  :(
I think they do that just to piss us off (or maybe just me).

They live in some previous technological time frame. AND WHERE IS THE DAILY REPORT!!!
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: Jim on March 26, 2018, 05:51:35 PM
This PDF will have to be OCR'ed to be automatically compared.  Its pages are images, not text.  :(
I think they do that just to piss us off (or maybe just me).

They live in some previous technological time frame. AND WHERE IS THE DAILY REPORT!!!

And the Ranger talks schedule!

Here's a quick and dirty OCR (no pretty formatting) of the 2018 compendium up to the appendix pages that had embedded images.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: RichardM on March 26, 2018, 06:00:05 PM
This PDF will have to be OCR'ed to be automatically compared.  Its pages are images, not text.  :(
I think they do that just to piss us off (or maybe just me).

They live in some previous technological time frame. AND WHERE IS THE DAILY REPORT!!!
I am working on extracting the text via Adobe Acrobat, but it is slow going.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: presidio on March 26, 2018, 07:20:48 PM
This PDF will have to be OCR'ed to be automatically compared.  Its pages are images, not text.  :(

After all, it's REALLY hard to publish it as a readable PDF.

I'd call it digital incompetence, but is more likely they JUST DON'T CARE.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: presidio on March 26, 2018, 07:22:27 PM
2018 Superintendents Compendium (https://www.nps.gov/bibe/learn/management/upload/2018-BIBE-Superintendents-Compendium.pdf)

Time for a presidio comparison chart.

I will be doing that, AFTER I make the PDF readable, since the NPS just can't seem to do it.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: Flash on March 26, 2018, 08:08:28 PM
It is signed by Acting Super. Etheridge. There's been a bunch of chief rangers with 'E' names:  Elkowitz and Etheridge. I recall there was a big sendoff in 2016 when Etheridge took a regional position in Arizona.  So now he is Acting Super. until Cindy Ott-Jones's replacement is named after retiring last year...  :eusa_think:
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: Casa Grande on March 26, 2018, 09:13:31 PM
Why is this thread making me so sad?

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Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: Flash on March 26, 2018, 09:27:24 PM
Why is this thread making me so sad?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Big Bend Chat mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=88143)
Yeah, perhaps because we are trying to find out what new restrictions will be placed upon us or because the NPS doesn't simply publish a What's New summary so we don't have to dig into it? Or why we bother to put chains on ourselves before they are announced and enforced? Don't worry, be happy.  8)
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: Casa Grande on March 26, 2018, 09:28:40 PM


Why is this thread making me so sad?

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Don't worry, be happy.  8)

Done


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Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: House Made of Dawn on March 26, 2018, 10:40:05 PM
Thanks for posting the heads-up, ME. And thanks for doing the heavy lifting, guys. Looking forward (or maybe not) to your results.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: Peter O on March 26, 2018, 10:47:42 PM
There is a new provision in the 2018 Compendium regarding Backcountry Camping that was not in the 2017 version.  It has me a bit worried, although I hope my concerns are misplaced.

By way of background, Jonathan Sadow reported on a statement by a ranger about bear canisters during a program he attended at the park last May,  Big Bend National Park trip, April 24 to May 1, 2017 (http://www.bigbendchat.com/portal/forum/your-trip-reports/big-bend-national-park-trip-april-24-to-may-1-2017/): "The ranger cannily brought the materials for her talk in her bear canister, a BearVault BV-500, talked about its use, and then mentioned that sooner or later the use of bear canisters would be required in BIBE.”  Johnathan's information generated lots of comments, consternation, and general head-scratching.

When I was obtaining the permit for my hike this past December, the ranger who was assisting me asked if I had a bear canister.  I told him that I did but that I would rather not carry the extra weight unless it was required.  He said it was not yet required but that “we will be pushing hard” for it in the next few months.  I have been hoping that the new compendium would not impose such a requirement.  After taking a quick look at it, I'm not sure whether it does or not. 

In the 2018 Compendium, section (d) of the "Backcountry Camping" rules (pgs. 9-10) starts the same as the old version.  It seems to suggest that a bear-resistant container is needed only "when the items are not ... closely attended and within the immediate reach of the owner day or night."  This sounds just like the existing policy, which did not require a backcountry backpacker to carry a bear-resistant container as long as you keep your food (etc.) within arms reach at all times.

But there is also a new paragraph that was added:

"Commercially available bear resistant container designed for this purpose must be utilized by backpackers where bear lockers are not provided in backcountry sites. The permittee must show the permit writer that they have canister(s) in their possession before a permit is issued."

(I added the emphasis.)

Does this mean that ALL backcountry backpackers must display a canister to obtain a permit or that only those backpackers who will not keep their food with them at all times must do so?  Or does it mean something else? 

As Mule Ears noted, the information on the BIBE website about Backcountry Food Storage has not been updated (since Dec. 2015), so maybe there will be some clarification at some point.  If there is a new bear-resistant container policy, I hope Mule Ears is correct that they will allow IGBC-approved Ursack bags, which are about two pounds lighter than the hard-sided canisters.  I guess time will tell.

At the end of the day, I agree with what Dprather said in More on Bear Canisters (http://www.bigbendchat.com/portal/forum/big-bend-questions-and-answers/more-on-bear-canisters/): “We intend to do what is expected of us and to carry a canister if that is the way it is.”  But I still hope that's not the way it is.

(I had intended to attached an OCR version of the 2018 Compendium that I created in Adobe Acrobat, but it got rejected since the file is too big (3.5 mb).  I will try to think of another way to make it available.)

Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: presidio on March 27, 2018, 01:49:05 AM
I am working on extracting the text via Adobe Acrobat, but it is slow going.

Try this. I have run the thing through Acrobat OCR.

I have deleted the image pages relating to public assembly and printed material distribution as irrelevant to the discussion and to keep the attachment under the 1500kb limit.

While the document now is fully searchable, if you try copying to a word processor document you will find the result less than perfect (I've never been able to understand why Adobe does this).

The comparison with the prior compendium will take a bit longer.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: RichardM on March 27, 2018, 08:10:16 AM
I am working on extracting the text via Adobe Acrobat, but it is slow going.

Try this. I have run the thing through Acrobat OCR.
Thanks. Apparently I could use a tutorial on OCR with Acrobat.  :icon_rolleyes: Not sure what I was doing wrong, but I wasn't having much luck.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: Jim on March 27, 2018, 09:07:06 AM
Looks like there is one rule the NPS didn't follow, at least for a while.  Are PJ and the Basin still the only VCs that issue permits?

Section 2.10: Camping
   Backcountry Camping (a)
      Permits will be issued at Visitor Contact Stations park-wide.
      Permits may be obtained at any Visitor Center within the park.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: Casa Grande on March 27, 2018, 10:32:48 AM
"Commercially available bear resistant container designed for this purpose must be utilized by backpackers where bear lockers are not provided in backcountry sites. The permittee must show the permit writer that they have canister(s) in their possession before a permit is issued."

That sounds mostly for zone camping since most designated campsites have bear boxes and the ones that don't are for desert car camping.

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Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: presidio on March 27, 2018, 12:11:50 PM
Looks like there is one rule the NPS didn't follow, at least for a while.  Are PJ and the Basin still the only VCs that issue permits?

Section 2.10: Camping
   Backcountry Camping (a)
      Permits will be issued at Visitor Contact Stations park-wide.
      Permits may be obtained at any Visitor Center within the park.

Not surprising. The people making the rules frequently exempt themselves from enforcement.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: Peter O on March 27, 2018, 07:09:35 PM
"Commercially available bear resistant container designed for this purpose must be utilized by backpackers where bear lockers are not provided in backcountry sites. The permittee must show the permit writer that they have canister(s) in their possession before a permit is issued."

That sounds mostly for zone camping since most designated campsites have bear boxes and the ones that don't are for desert car camping.

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Yes, my question about the new bear canister provision relates to wilderness zone camping.  I used the term “backcountry backpacking” too broadly since that includes the park’s designated sites—where bear canisters are not an issue. 
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: presidio on March 31, 2018, 12:40:18 PM
Okay folks, I know you've been holding your breath.

Here it is....the comparison between the 2018 Compendium and the prior version.

A bit of editorial (the comparison is an attached PDF). Every year, when going through the document I am left amazed that it even is possible to use the park in light of the exceedingly abundant, and ever-growing, restrictions and requirements. The Compendium is all about minutely controlling you rather than allowing your enjoyment of the park.

As I've also noted before, the Compendium is so poorly written they should be embarrassed. For a comparison, take a look at the Grand Canyon Compendium.

https://www.nps.gov/grca/learn/management/upload/2017-grca-supt-compendium.pdf

Ignoring a debate on the necessity for all the local regs at any park, the GRCA version has a mere 31 pages (same as BIBE) for a park that is 50% larger and with vastly more tourists and problems than Big Bend ever will see.

Additionally, some of the GRCA document length is consumed by lucid explanations of the rationale for the rule, something Big Bend never has done, and if they did so their document likely would balloon to 50 pages. So, GRCA has fewer rules, that are far better written, and seems to be able to get by just fine with that lesser amount.

More importantly, the GRCA version is readable and understandable. In contrast, the Big Bend version says a lot about the regulatory mindset of the park as well as their inability to craft the written word. Perhaps these folks are in the hinterlands for a reason.

There also are a number of other changes which comprise a butcher job compared to 2016/2017, with terminology conflicts and layout issues. Most of these deviations are ignored as not substantially affecting the crushing oversight either way. However, the park desperately needs someone who understands how to write regulations (ex: so your headlights illuminating an animal running across the road does not constitute a violation as a result of unforced, amateurish, errors in composition), as well as someone who knows how to edit a document for flow and consistency. Both sorely are lacking.

Enjoy (if you can call it that) reading.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: dprather on March 31, 2018, 12:56:57 PM

At the end of the day, I agree with what Dprather said in More on Bear Canisters (http://www.bigbendchat.com/portal/forum/big-bend-questions-and-answers/more-on-bear-canisters/): “We intend to do what is expected of us and to carry a canister if that is the way it is.”  But I still hope that's not the way it is.


There might be a silver lining here.  If more are required to carry a bear canister, less might backpack the back country. 

This is a lousy, administrival way to reduce back-country numbers, but the numbers need to come down.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: presidio on March 31, 2018, 01:18:24 PM
There might be a silver lining here.  If more are required to carry a bear canister, less might backpack the back country. 

This is a lousy, administrival way to reduce back-country numbers, but the numbers need to come down.

We already have too many restrictions on using parks.

The problem is not too many backpackers, but too many people who only know how to (or who will only) backpack in NPS areas.

Besides, the NPS has absolutely no interest in curtailing user numbers (regardless of their whining about overuse) as theirs entirely is a numbers game. Any decline in user statistics is cause for alarm if not panic.

Unlike the other federal land agencies, if the tourists don't come, the NPS has no reason to exist. It's been that way from day one.

Big Bend is not the only superior area to visit; not by a long shot.

As occasionally is reported here (including your trips) folks need to wean themselves off a 100% diet of NPS and use those other lands that are unpopulated, and just as (if not more so) spectacular.

Those lands require more initiative and responsibility, but the reward is far less regulation along with places the parkie crowd never will see.

There's far more challenge and adventure out there than repeatedly hiking the OML and worrying whether high clearance/4WD is needed to get into RGV  or Panther Junction.   :s_laugh:

Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: House Made of Dawn on March 31, 2018, 01:32:05 PM
Okay folks, I know you've been holding your breath.

Actually...yes, I have.  Thanks for doing this, Presidio. You do it very well.

For a comparison, take a look at the Grand Canyon Compendium.

https://www.nps.gov/grca/learn/management/upload/2017-grca-supt-compendium.pdf

Ignoring a debate on the necessity for all the local regs at any park, the GRCA version has a mere 31 pages (same as BIBE) for a park that is 50% larger and with vastly more tourists and problems than Big Bend ever will see.

Additionally, some of the GRCA document length is consumed by lucid explanations of the rationale for the rule, something Big Bend never has done, and if they did so their document likely would balloon to 50 pages. So, GRCA has fewer rules, that are far better written, and seems to be able to get by just fine with that lesser amount.

These are all very good points.  I can't tell you (well, actually, I can...and did, in last year's Round the Bend in 16 Days trip report) how hard it is to sift through and clarify the various published (and non-published) BIBE rules, in order to plan a large, long, legal, multi-modal trip through the park.

Seems like the biggest changes are 1) requiring approved bearproof containers in the absence of NPS-installled bear boxes, and 2) actually demonstrating that users have the NPS-mandated equipment (i.e., bearproof containers, extra paddles/oars, etc.).  #2 makes perfect sense: I mean, if it's required, you should have it, and you should be able to show you have it. Last year, I did, and I did.  #1, however, is a little scary. If long-distance remote backcountry backpackers (e.g., HMoD) are now required to use bearproof canisters at all times, this is going to be a significant obstacle to long trips (I have it on good authority that HMoD can do it; he just won't like it; or think it empirically justified by historical data of bear/human interactions outside the Chisos). 

I agree with Dprather, if portable bearproof containers are required of all backpackers in BIBE, user-numbers are going to plummet. Bad for them, good for me.  Maybe. The places I go, I don't see anyone anyway.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: badknees on March 31, 2018, 02:39:05 PM
Seems kinda funny that the only place in the whole 1200 sq miles that any bear "encounters/incidents" have ever occured, are areas that have bear boxes!!!
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: House Made of Dawn on March 31, 2018, 03:09:14 PM
Seems kinda funny that the only place in the whole 1200 sq miles that any bear "encounters/incidents" have ever occured, are areas that have bear boxes!!!

I know, right? 

But there's method in the madness. If I was a public lands administrator in BIBE, given the inevitable intersection between seasonal user peaks in the Chisos and seasonal peaks in available bear food (mast), I'd limit camping sites in the Chisos and provide bear-proof food storage in those sites. What's "funny" is applying the same rubric to the inhospitable low desert despite an estimated maximum park-wide carrying capacity of 25 bears and zero documented case of negative bear-human interactions therein. If I understand the new rule properly, this is a solution in search of a problem.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: mule ears on March 31, 2018, 03:24:32 PM
I had noted the difference in camping radius around Mariscal Mine.  When planning our Dec. trip I carefully adhered to the .5 mile radius, 2 miles would have made it nearly impossible to walk the spine of the mountain and get an additional 2 miles away.  Guess the Fresno site is exempted.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: badknees on March 31, 2018, 07:03:34 PM
I had noted the difference in camping radius around Mariscal Mine.  When planning our Dec. trip I carefully adhered to the .5 mile radius, 2 miles would have made it nearly impossible to walk the spine of the mountain and get an additional 2 miles away.  Guess the Fresno site is exempted.

I noticed that too. I guess because  Fresno  -it  is not a zone campiing site. I get the rule, but 2 Miles is arbitrary, unnecessary and a number pulled out of someone’s butt.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: presidio on March 31, 2018, 11:43:47 PM
Okay folks, I know you've been holding your breath.

Actually...yes, I have.  Thanks for doing this, Presidio. You do it very well.

You're welcome and thank you.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: presidio on March 31, 2018, 11:51:55 PM
Seems like the biggest changes are 1) requiring approved bearproof containers in the absence of NPS-installled bear boxes, and 2) actually demonstrating that users have the NPS-mandated equipment (i.e., bearproof containers, extra paddles/oars, etc.).

The extra paddle rule is logical, and I have no issue with it as it is a hedge against the very real danger of lost equipment in remote areas.

The bear containers? It is not logical and no problem requiring them has been demonstrated. As others have noted, it is a solution in search of a need.

The NPS crafts these rules in a vacuum; there is no public review or input. If they had to publish these like they should (and like every other agency must), the inability to defend or articulate a genuine need quickly would strip away some of this nonsense.

Of course, there are many sycophant tourists for whom no rule, restriction or cost is too much, so that would skew the result against logic.

The NPS simply does not like being required to expose their ideas to public scrutiny; they'd much rather just dictate them as they always have. That attitude repeatedly has been shown to result in poor rule crafting everywhere it is allowed to occur. It needs to change.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: presidio on March 31, 2018, 11:53:43 PM
I had noted the difference in camping radius around Mariscal Mine.  When planning our Dec. trip I carefully adhered to the .5 mile radius, 2 miles would have made it nearly impossible to walk the spine of the mountain and get an additional 2 miles away.  Guess the Fresno site is exempted.

It still is unknown whether this is a change or merely a typo.

The park could answer that here but we know they won't.

If it's an error, the NPS is unlikely to admit it.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: RichardM on April 02, 2018, 09:25:15 AM
I had noted the difference in camping radius around Mariscal Mine.  When planning our Dec. trip I carefully adhered to the .5 mile radius, 2 miles would have made it nearly impossible to walk the spine of the mountain and get an additional 2 miles away.  Guess the Fresno site is exempted.

It still is unknown whether this is a change or merely a typo.

The park could answer that here but we know they won't.

If it's an error, the NPS is unlikely to admit it.
To get a response from the park, try https://www.nps.gov/bibe/contacts.htm
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: Flash on April 02, 2018, 09:34:44 AM
I had noted the difference in camping radius around Mariscal Mine.  When planning our Dec. trip I carefully adhered to the .5 mile radius, 2 miles would have made it nearly impossible to walk the spine of the mountain and get an additional 2 miles away.  Guess the Fresno site is exempted.

It still is unknown whether this is a change or merely a typo.

The park could answer that here but we know they won't.

If it's an error, the NPS is unlikely to admit it.
To get a response from the park, try https://www.nps.gov/bibe/contacts.htm
Suggest not asking if the new number is correct. Instead inform them there is an obvious typo...
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: Casa Grande on April 02, 2018, 11:39:08 AM


Suggest not asking if the new number is correct. Instead inform them there is an obvious typo...

That'll be a hoot. Just be sure to tell them you're from BBC, that'll make them happy.   Come to think of it,  maybe I should do that, they'll like that even better.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: Casa Grande on April 02, 2018, 11:52:04 AM
The Compendium is all about minutely controlling you rather than allowing your enjoyment of the park.

Absolutely. 

As demonstrated by my recent little public "chat" with a PJ minion on Facebook.

Do what you're told, ask only questions we can answer,  buy our stuff, and go away.

The little amount of speaking I do with Park Service personnel when I'm there is too much.

And that's sad because there was a time I found many them there to be my friends. Many of whom were at my wedding in the park 12 years ago.   They have since either moved away entirely,  retired,  or have been told to discredit BBC and therefore me. Very sad indeed.

The NPS in BIBE is in serious need of some good PR people. But that would mean they'd have to care.

Anyway,  sorry. I digress.

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Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: Homer Wilson on April 02, 2018, 12:59:10 PM
1 - On the compendium PDF - I thought all federal agencies had to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Acts, which I think requires all publications to be in an accessible format (ie actual text, not an image in the PDF).  If I'm right about this, isn't this a violation?

2 - I very recently got a zone camping permit.  They asked if I had a bear canister.  I said no.  They said to make sure my food was very close by.  That would in keeping with what is posted on the website:
Quote
All food, water, food products, food trash, unclean cooking utensils and other aromatic items must be stored in a hard-sided vehicle, or provided bear resistant storage locker –unless items are closely attended and within arms-reach.
I assume they can't deny a permit for someone who follows the above guidelines while it is posted on the website? And if it changes, I would hope they set a date for when it will take effect that is publicly available?  But I can see an outcome where they change it overnight, and then deny a permit  to some poor soul who was in compliance with what the website showed when he left his house

3 - To Casa Grande's post above - When has this site given out bad advice?  When has this site not urged personal caution or respect for the park? When has it promoted not following the rules?  We may gripe about things, but we all love the park and want to preserve it.  Look at the web address Mule Ears has for the Compendium.  What casual visitor would have dug that up?  But this site has made that available so people can begin be aware of new rules and make changes to their gear or plans to follow them.  And how many people has this site's detailed documentation of the OML helped be much better prepared or discouraged from doing it?  I'm sure an S&R or two has been avoided thanks to that info. 
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: Casa Grande on April 02, 2018, 01:14:26 PM

1 - On the compendium PDF - I thought all federal agencies had to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Acts, which I think requires all publications to be in an accessible format (ie actual text, not an image in the PDF).  If I'm right about this, isn't this a violation?
Good point,  and I believe it does.   Text to speech is not possible  from images, as far as I know.



3 - To Casa Grande's post above - When has this site given out bad advice?  When has this site not urged personal caution or respect for the park? When has it promoted not following the rules?  We may gripe about things, but we all love the park and want to preserve it.  Look at the web address Mule Ears has for the Compendium.  What casual visitor would have dug that up?  But this site has made that available so people can begin be aware of new rules and make changes to their gear or plans to follow them.  And how many people has this site's detailed documentation of the OML helped be much better prepared or discouraged from doing it?  I'm sure an S&R or two has been avoided thanks to that info.

Perfectly said.   And that is because of the generosity from people like you,  HW! So thank you!



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Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: Talusman on April 02, 2018, 02:14:13 PM

1 - On the compendium PDF - I thought all federal agencies had to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Acts, which I think requires all publications to be in an accessible format (ie actual text, not an image in the PDF).  If I'm right about this, isn't this a violation?
Good point,  and I believe it does.   Text to speech is not possible  from images, as far as I know.



3 - To Casa Grande's post above - When has this site given out bad advice?  When has this site not urged personal caution or respect for the park? When has it promoted not following the rules?  We may gripe about things, but we all love the park and want to preserve it.  Look at the web address Mule Ears has for the Compendium.  What casual visitor would have dug that up?  But this site has made that available so people can begin be aware of new rules and make changes to their gear or plans to follow them.  And how many people has this site's detailed documentation of the OML helped be much better prepared or discouraged from doing it?  I'm sure an S&R or two has been avoided thanks to that info.

Perfectly said.   And that is because of the generosity from people like you,  HW! So thank you!



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Ditto!
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: presidio on April 02, 2018, 04:33:25 PM


Suggest not asking if the new number is correct. Instead inform them there is an obvious typo...

That'll be a hoot. Just be sure to tell them you're from BBC, that'll make them happy.   Come to think of it,  maybe I should do that, they'll like that even better.

I defer to your superior status as an aggravator of the NPS.  :notworthy:

Perhaps you could point them to the 2018 comparison so they don't have to go looking for where the Compendium is hidden?  :s_laugh:

Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: Casa Grande on April 02, 2018, 04:42:05 PM


I defer to your superior status as an aggravator of the NPS.  :notworthy:

I don't know about "superior," but I certainly don't try to hide behind the false  anonymity of the internet.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Big Bend Chat mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=88143)

Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: presidio on April 02, 2018, 05:25:46 PM
1 - On the compendium PDF - I thought all federal agencies had to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Acts, which I think requires all publications to be in an accessible format (ie actual text, not an image in the PDF).  If I'm right about this, isn't this a violation?

You make a very good point I had not previously considered. A document in image format cannot be "read" by software for the visually impaired.

Quote
I assume they can't deny a permit for someone who follows the above guidelines while it is posted on the website?

Past events have shown that doesn't always pan out.

Quote
But I can see an outcome where they change it overnight, and then deny a permit  to some poor soul who was in compliance with what the website showed when he left his house

Or, they incorrectly interpret their own rules.

Quote
To Casa Grande's post above - When has this site given out bad advice?  When has this site not urged personal caution or respect for the park? When has it promoted not following the rules?

Bad advice never has been deliberately been offered as far as I can remember. As for the other two, it's doubtful any examples to the contrary could be found.

All-in-all, the forums do a good job. It's just that the NPS doesn't like competition, but they avoid numerous times they could have participated. Responding here would be no different from answering a phone call, letter, or email, but the agency cannot seem to be bothered by a more efficient form of communication that reaches a far wider audience and thus presumably would result in better knowledge and fewer problems. But, their voice is drowned out by crickets.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: tjavery on September 16, 2018, 10:56:25 AM
I'm planning an overnight backpacking trip for my family. This will involve zone camping. After reading the compendium, I think I understand the rule to mean that you either keep your smelly-type items (food, toothpaste, wipes, and even water  :icon_rolleyes:) on you at all times, or you put it into a bear-proof container.

Our plan may involve making a base camp somewhere, and then venturing out a little ways. In that case, some of the smelly-type items will be left behind at base camp, and we will need bear-proof containers to comply with the rules.

With me so far? Any advice or correction would be appreciated.

So, if these containers are really needed, is there a list of approved models somewhere? Or is there some type of regulatory rating or stamp of approval to look for when getting these so called bear-proof containers?
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: mule ears on September 16, 2018, 11:52:41 AM
I'm planning an overnight backpacking trip for my family. This will involve zone camping. After reading the compendium, I think I understand the rule to mean that you either keep your smelly-type items (food, toothpaste, wipes, and even water  :icon_rolleyes:) on you at all times, or you put it into a bear-proof container.

Our plan may involve making a base camp somewhere, and then venturing out a little ways. In that case, some of the smelly-type items will be left behind at base camp, and we will need bear-proof containers to comply with the rules.

With me so far? Any advice or correction would be appreciated.

So, if these containers are really needed, is there a list of approved models somewhere? Or is there some type of regulatory rating or stamp of approval to look for when getting these so called bear-proof containers?

TJ here is the NPS food page (https://www.nps.gov/bibe/planyourvisit/bc_foodstorage.htm) with the approved containers.  I would recommend the Bear Vault as the best value for cost, weight and ease of use. 

The other option is to just carry your smelly stuff with you when you go dayhike and then no need for a container.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: presidio on September 16, 2018, 12:05:07 PM
With me so far? Any advice or correction would be appreciated.

Wishing you 'good luck' with that seems appropriate.


Quote
So, if these containers are really needed, is there a list of approved models somewhere? Or is there some type of regulatory rating or stamp of approval to look for when getting these so called bear-proof containers?

Go to https://www.nps.gov/bibe/planyourvisit/bc_foodstorage.htm for the official NPS stamp of approval for such items.

However, if you also search for this topic on their website you will get a hit for https://www.nps.gov/bibe/planyourvisit/bc_regulations.htm
When you click on the link under 'food storage' you will get an immediate 404 error because the agency has hamfisted the URL into this special example of coding expertise:
https://www.nps.gov/bibe/planyourvisit/nps.gov/bibe/planyourvisit/bc_foodstorage.htm

Apparently they don't bother to test the links they post.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: presidio on September 16, 2018, 12:15:36 PM
The other option is to just carry your smelly stuff with you when you go dayhike and then no need for a container.

Definitely the way to go. While this extra weight will slow you down while strolling on day hikes, you will have everything you need to discard as distractors while you run from the bear.

Not unlike spreading chaff to confuse radar targeting aircraft.

Be sure to toss the worst smelling stuff first for best effect. In the best case, if the most odoriferous items also are the heaviest, your escape speed will then increase and the bear will take the bait.

Everybody wins.

Keep in mind that unless you are alone, you only have to outpace your companion(s), so you may not even have to break a sweat (or need to toss everything).
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: tjavery on September 16, 2018, 09:14:05 PM
I'm planning an overnight backpacking trip for my family. This will involve zone camping. After reading the compendium, I think I understand the rule to mean that you either keep your smelly-type items (food, toothpaste, wipes, and even water  :icon_rolleyes:) on you at all times, or you put it into a bear-proof container.

Our plan may involve making a base camp somewhere, and then venturing out a little ways. In that case, some of the smelly-type items will be left behind at base camp, and we will need bear-proof containers to comply with the rules.

With me so far? Any advice or correction would be appreciated.

So, if these containers are really needed, is there a list of approved models somewhere? Or is there some type of regulatory rating or stamp of approval to look for when getting these so called bear-proof containers?

TJ here is the NPS food page (https://www.nps.gov/bibe/planyourvisit/bc_foodstorage.htm) with the approved containers.  I would recommend the Bear Vault as the best value for cost, weight and ease of use. 

The other option is to just carry your smelly stuff with you when you go dayhike and then no need for a container.

Thanks, ME. I appreciate the feedback!
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: House Made of Dawn on September 17, 2018, 07:45:53 PM
TJ here is the NPS food page (https://www.nps.gov/bibe/planyourvisit/bc_foodstorage.htm) with the approved containers.  I would recommend the Bear Vault as the best value for cost, weight and ease of use. 
The other option is to just carry your smelly stuff with you when you go dayhike and then no need for a container.

That's interesting. I think that list has been added since last time I looked in depth at the compendium. I remember the compendium linking to lists issued by NPS entities in the Sierras.  Or maybe I'm just getting old.  Anyways, TJ, my two cents in answer to your questions: Even the lightest approved bearproof containers are going to weigh a couple pounds.  And they're bulky.  And expensive. Do the math and figure what works best for your hiking crew. Personally, I'd probably carry my stuff with me on my back rather than leave it at camp. But if I know you, you'll probably be lugging a ton of photo equipment with you, too, so that might not make sense. If you do buy one or more bearproof containers, I recommend Bearvaults (they come in a few sizes).  They're the lightest BiBe-approved containers and really work wonderfully. I use them and so do several others here (I know ME does, as did PeterO on his huge hikes a few months ago). I think Bearvaults are vastly better than all the other alternative types....except for the much lighter and much easier-to-carry soft-sided Ursacks....which for some reason, the powers-that-be at BiBe have not added to their list. Probably because the process of correctly closing them with the attached cordage can be a little finicky. Meanwhile, Ursacks are working just fine for everyone in the Sierras. Oh, well.....

Edit: one suggestion for bear canisters, if you buy them: add a couple strips of reflective tape to them in case a bear or some other animal actually bats them around at night. Makes it a LOT easier to find them in the dark.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: tjavery on September 17, 2018, 08:45:19 PM
Thanks HMOD! Good advice. I looked at the Bear Vaults yesterday at REI. That's a lot of money for a heavy plastic container.

Right on about the photo gear. In the past, I've set up camp and then wandered off to explore, leaving the food behind. Having the smelly stuff in a hard container is probably a good idea. At the very least it would keep the javelinas out of my food.

I got a roll of reflective tape last year to put on my tripods. That's an excellent suggestion to put it on the canisters. Thanks!
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: Hookim on September 18, 2018, 08:52:49 AM
Thanks HMOD! Good advice. I looked at the Bear Vaults yesterday at REI. That's a lot of money for a heavy plastic container.

Right on about the photo gear. In the past, I've set up camp and then wandered off to explore, leaving the food behind. Having the smelly stuff in a hard container is probably a good idea. At the very least it would keep the javelinas out of my food.

I got a roll of reflective tape last year to put on my tripods. That's an excellent suggestion to put it on the canisters. Thanks!
Guys, do we have a gear-specific suggestion thread with topics such as bear-proof containers, reflective tape uses, etc. that's basically a bulleted topic list with short descriptors?...
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: mule ears on September 18, 2018, 09:37:52 AM
Guys, do we have a gear-specific suggestion thread with topics such as bear-proof containers, reflective tape uses, etc. that's basically a bulleted topic list with short descriptors?...

There is the General Outdoor Stuff & Camping Equipment (http://www.bigbendchat.com/portal/forum/general-outdoor-stuff-camping-equipment/) section all the way down the Forum list.

There is even a thread on Bear Food Storage Containers (http://www.bigbendchat.com/portal/forum/general-outdoor-stuff-camping-equipment/bear-food-storage-containers/).  Which is not about storing bear food but human food.   ;)
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: Hookim on September 18, 2018, 10:01:38 AM
Guys, do we have a gear-specific suggestion thread with topics such as bear-proof containers, reflective tape uses, etc. that's basically a bulleted topic list with short descriptors?...

There is the General Outdoor Stuff & Camping Equipment (http://www.bigbendchat.com/portal/forum/general-outdoor-stuff-camping-equipment/) section all the way down the Forum list.

There is even a thread on Bear Food Storage Containers (http://www.bigbendchat.com/portal/forum/general-outdoor-stuff-camping-equipment/bear-food-storage-containers/).  Which is not about storing bear food but human food.   ;)
Lol! Great! Thanks, ME - I'll check 'em out.
Title: Re: The 2018 Superintendents Compendium is out
Post by: tjavery on September 18, 2018, 09:51:20 PM
(http://texbrick.com/photo/blog/foto/bearbeers.jpg)