new camera woes

[trtlrock]

I know this thread won't matter to DSLR fans, but when I went camera-shopping this past week I was astounded by my lack of choices.

Brief background: my wife & I hike together, and we each carry a camera. We have pretty basic needs, and given our seemingly easy-to-fulfill list of guidelines, I envisioned a short & easy process.

Here's our stipulations. Keep in mind that we're pretty UL, so that's our major focus vis-a-vis cameras.

What we have: Canon A710IS. Fine camera, but we only have one, there's a small hairline scratch on the lens, and some of the symbols on the backside have rubbed off. Other camera has been a Canon SD500 (IIRC), which is severely limited by the lack of IS.

So...

1) must be same resolution as A710IS, or better.

2) must weigh no more than about 7-8 oz, same as A710IS

3) can't be bigger than the A710 physically

4) must use AA batteries (we find non-standard batteries tend to limit us when caching, are expensive, and don't hold a charge as long as good AA's)

5) must have an optical viewfinder. This is non-negotiable; I bet I have to take maybe 40% of my pics using the viewfinder, as even a good LCD screen will often be washed or glared out by direct sun, and/or simply won't let me see with enough accuracy exactly what I'm framing.

6) A710 has 6x optical zoom; wouldn't mind more, but certainly can't go back to 4x

7) must use SD card

must have good macro capabilities, as well as fully manual operation, at least as far as the ability to choose the focus-point goes.

9) we've had good luck with the Canons; all things being equal I'd buy a Canon.

Well, OK -- Canon makes about 30 non-DSLR models -- this should be easy.

Want to guess how many Canon models fit the bill?  That's right -- NONE! Canon replaced the A710 with the A720, then discontinued that and did not replace it with a comparable model.

The main problem is that viewfinders are disappearing more rapidly than aging 60s rock stars. And, of course, keeping the weight under 8oz takes care of most of the rest. Then another batch went out the window as they didn't use AA batteries. The few remaining contenders meant going backwards to a 4x optical zoom, which I'm just not willing to do.

OK -- guess it won't be a Canon. Go & check all the camera review sites; maybe a Fuji or a Leica or a Panasonic? NOPE -- there were NO additional cameras that met the criteria!

WTF?! (panic starts to creep in).

Well, Canon made the A720 (was marginally better than the A710 & was just discontinued recently) -- I'll bet I can find brand-new, non-refurb ones at a good discount...

NOPE! I googled for hours & ended up finding an e-Bay vendor with a 100% satisfaction rate that had 6 (count 'em -- 6!) left in stock. I bought two.

And the price? Canon's MSRP was $249, and I'll bet that when the model was current it would have been pretty easy to scare up a deal around $175-$200. Now the few remaining new ones are going for MORE THAN LIST PRICE! So (in general) are the refurbs & grey-market goods!

I ended paying $268 + shipping.

I am SO glad I didn't put this search off for another month or so, as I had been inclined to do...

[Sotol Vista]

oh, its a serious pain to find a small camera these days. Was looking for a new camera for my wife a few years ago and she did not like any of them. THen her sister got a new camera and my wife LOVED it. It was being discontinued and the only place that had one was the Sony Store in the Galleria here in Houston, and I nabbed the LAST one. I looked hight an low for DAYS


not sure if you used this search tool but it really helps, can select from many features to find cameras

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare.asp

James

[trtlrock]

not sure if you used this search tool but it really helps, can select from many features to find cameras

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare.asp

James

yep -- used that one, as well as others. Those are moderately helpful, but (inherently it seems) they end up with an overly-huge pool to choose from. Two examples: weight goes from <7oz (which rules out 7-8oz) directly to <12oz, which introduces 50-100 models in the 10-12oz range I won't do. And MP choices are really useless (4-6MP then 6-8MP for instance, why not >4Mp and then >6Mp instead?).

[dkerr24]

Some of your requirements are easily met, like using SD cards.  Everybody except Sony seems to have standardized on SDHC cards.  

I own both a Canon G9 and a Canon A540.  The usage of AA's in the A540 is pretty handy, but really the battery packs aren't all that bulky in the G9, and you can buy fairly cheap generic batteries for the G9 that perform as well or better than the stock battery for less than $25 each.  I get about 300-400 pictures out of each charge, even when using the display on the G9.  I carried 2 spare batteries for my G9 on a weeklong hiking trip in the Grand Canyon last Nov, and only ended up using 1 battery and part of a second one before I was out of the canyon.  

The battery pack in the G9 is a bit smaller and weighs about the same as 2 AA batteries.

Of course, the G9 has been replaced by the G10.  Other than the lack of AA battery support, I suppose the weight of the G series is outside of what you are willing to carry.

Edit:  If you don't already know about these, you should try them.  Buy Sanyo Eneloop rechargeable AA batteries.  They don't lose their charge sitting on the shelf like the Everready batteries do.  They cost a bit more, but are definitely worth it.

[mule ears]

Yep the non AA battery thing is a pain and slowed me down too, along with the no view finder thing last summer when I was looking. I ended up though getting a Canon SD870 for the wide angle lense and with the 3" screen I find I am not missing the view finder.

The battery life is amazing and I ended up just getting an extra battery like dkerr said. On the last trip I barely had to go to the spare battery. jeffblaylocks new solar charger might be a solution here for really long trips.

I go like the 6.5 oz weight, and the wider slower lense too.

[trtlrock]

I'm updating this thread as I think it may be helpful to people looking to purchase a non-DSLR camera, especially people who really don't know what they're doing -- like me.

The e-Bay Canon A720IS new-in-the-box sale turned out to be a classic bait-and-switch scam; I'm just happy I got my full refund.

This put me back at square-1, which meant a LOT more research.

As it turned out, not getting the Canon cameras was a great thing. After reading all the camera-related threads at BPL, and many of the threads here, I realized that my priorities going into the search needed to be revamped.

Most notably, it finally sunk into my head how important wide-angle is for landscapes, which is pretty much what we shoot the most. And the Canon A710/A720 starts out way too narrow, 37mm IIRC.

My wife & I hike together, and we've got a lengthy once-in-a-lifetime trip to New Zealand coming up. Other than the NZ trip, we're most often hiking in BiBe. Two places that are pretty much all about landscapes. We've found that 2 cameras allows us to wander separately, never be without a camera, and also helps guarantee that we don't come home without at least some photographic evidence that both of us actually exist & were on the trip together. We've been using a Canon A710IS. Fine camera, but we only have one, there's a small hairline scratch on the lens, and some of the symbols on the backside have rubbed off, and it has unacceptable wide-angle capability. The other camera is a Canon SD500, which is not as good as the 710 in all respects and doesn't even have IS. Fwiw Tess is a good photographer, and I am more in the "even a blind pig" category.

So, after further education, here were the revised requirements:

1) must use SD card (that meant no Olympus or Sony)

2) prefer camera body to weigh <7oz, but would consider <9oz; absolute line drawn at <10oz. In addition, both cameras need to be compact physically.

3) At least 1 camera must have 24mm wide-angle, other one has to have at least 28mm

4) One camera has to have notably good macro; the other has to be at least decent in this area.

5) At least one camera needs good optical zoom out to about 140mm; the other camera has to have some kind of optical zoom.

6) Both cameras should have fully manual controls, especially the ability to move the focus point to a specific spot within the frame.

7) At least one camera, preferably both, should have about 8-10MP on a small-size sensor (approx 1/1.6 - 1/1.9, not 1/2.3 or 1/2.5)

Both cameras need a functional viewfinder of some kind.

9) Vastly prefer that the cameras take AA batteries

10) 2 identical cameras would be the ideal, but, if not, then the same brand would be good. If not, then really intuitive menus & excellent ergonomics become a major priority, as Tess & I will trade off cameras every day if the cameras are of unequal performance.

It became obvious about halfway through the research that we would end up with one "hobbyist" camera and one "zoom" camera. It also became painfully obvious that optional viewfinders and/or no viewfinder would have to be in play, as well as non-AA batteries.

Cutting to the chase, the "hobbyist" camera choice pretty easily narrowed down to the Ricoh GX200 or the Panasonic LX3. I chose the Ricoh due to the extra 12mm of limited zoom, the killer ergonomics, and the excellent (although optional) viewfinder. But I could easily have chosen the LX3. Neither one really screamed "I'm the one!"

Ricoh: http://www.ricoh.com/r_dc/gx/gx200/

Panasonic: http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/shop/Cameras-Camcorders/Digital-Cameras/Lumix-Digital-Cameras/model.DMC-LX3K_11002_7000000000000005702

The "zoom" camera also worked out to a pretty short list, and I ended up choosing the Panasonic ZS-3. This was, frankly, an unenthusuastic choice - in particular I'm really unhappy that it has almost no manual controls, and no viewfinder, but it did beat out all of the contenders, eventually. Maybe I'll love it.

Panasonic ZS3: http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/shop/Cameras-Camcorders/Digital-Cameras/Lumix-Digital-Cameras/model.DMC-ZS3K_11002_7000000000000005702

If I end up really liking or disliking these guys I'll update again...

[bdann]

I've owned two Panasonic Lumix cameras and both were fantastic.  That Ricoh looks pretty neat, I'd be interested in how it performs.  I'd like to have another compact camera, my DSLR tends to beat the crap out of me when I hike.  I now regret getting rid of my Panasonic.