Rafters get citation in Mexico

[Robert]

I saw this article in the San Antonio paper this morning. Thought I'd share. There were some rafters who violated their permit by building a fire and they were given a citation. Only thing thing was, they were in Mexico. It is an interesting situation. But I don't know that the US has a legal right to cite someone on the Mexican side.

Does Rangers' reach extend into Mexico?

Also there is a quote from Jan of Big Bend River Tours in the article.

[Lorax]

A river permit allows you to camp on either side or an island in the middle if you like.  You are not restricted to the US side but you have to follow Wild and Scenic River regulations.  That is why you are given a Customs Declaration with your permit.

[TheWildWestGuy]

I would agree with the Rangers and Jan's point if this would have happened in the National Park but this was way down near Sanderson in no-mans-land.  In the National Park the density of tourists and river runners is high so it's good to enforce the rules even if it's on sketchy legal ground but out in the middle of the lower canyons this seems a bit heavy handed and I hope they fight it.   After all if a Mexican had built a campfire on the Mexican side should the Rangers have given the Mexican a ticket?  Should Mexican rangers come over to the Texas side and give people tickets for breaking Mexican campfire laws?  The ranger should have used better judgement and not been so heavy handed.  He needs to be called out for it and I hope they do it!   TWWG

[oldfatman]

Did that "ranger" have permission to bring weapons and ammunition across the border into Mexico?  As far as I am concerned the ranger is wrong.  No matter how much you say you have authority in another country, you do not, period.  The rafters were not doing right by not using fire pan, but they do not have to obey USA law in Mexico.  I doubt the cost of fighting this crap is worth the bother. Where is Presidio? He and I could have a good gripe over this garbage.

Could it be that the rafters and ranger were making illegal entry into Mexico? Maybe, but the ticket was not about illegal entry. Some ranger's butt needs an official kicking.

[Roy]

I think Jan and the Rangers were basically right, these guys (in particular) should follow the rules.  But there's no way that citation is legit.   
But the practical effect of this is that Bowden and Hayes are now "in the system" as violaters.  If they challenge the citation they'd probably beat it, but they'd never get a permit again.

[homerboy2u]

The question is,because i read the story: Did they get a citation in Mexico? if that is the case,then is a landslide answer NO!!,the fine won't hold water. Park Rangers DO NOT have any jurisdiction in Mexico.

 If they recieved the citation in the U.S. for building a fire in Mexico,well that could be another case. Still you can not get a citation in U.S. soil for building a fire in Mexico, specially if you have permission from the land owner on the Mexican side,according to the story.

 I would like to see how it unfolds.

[Joe]

I also read this story in the San Antonio paper today.  I just looked up the regulations on the Rio Grande Wild and Scenic River website, and here’s what I found:

For the river environment’s protection and your safety, observe these regulations on both sides of the river and on private land along the Rio Grande Wild and Scenic River.

River users must contain campfires in firepans.

I’ll leave it up to the U.S. and Mexican governments to decide jurisdiction. Whether or not the river rangers have the legal right to enforce the regulations on the Mexican side of the river, the rafters agreed to follow the rules when they got their permit.

I’ve also known the two rangers involved very well for 20 years – Mike Ryan, who wrote the citation, and Marcos Paredes, who’s quoted in the article. We all used to work for Far Flung Adventures, and did many river trips together.  A few years ago I did a “float-along” with Mike Ryan on a two-day Boquillas Canyon trip, so I know what he’s like as a river ranger.

I trust Mike to be firm but fair, and it sounds from the article like he did use his discretion and common sense in not issuing a citation for failure to carry out their solid human waste. I don’t blame him for enforcing the regulations and ticketing these guys for not using a firepan.  I don’t want to find the remains of a campfire, no matter how well cleaned up, at an otherwise pristine campsite in the Lower Canyons.

[Al]

A delicate subject.  I think that if the persons are violating their permit they are violating their permit no matter which side of the river they are on.

Al

[oldfatman]

It is still a FACT that USA rules do not apply to other countries no matter how much the USA entities say they do.  It is not a legal document when it attempts to apply to another country.  I still feel the rafters were not doing the right thing, but no piece of paper about USA law like this applies in another country. I have not heard or read yet that the wild and scenic area is also recognized by Mexico on their property.  Also When did Mexico give the national Park folks authority to enforce USA laws in Mexico?

[Al]

The fact is the rangers have no jurisdiction in Mexico.  A city cop can't issue a ticket for violations beyond the city limits.  A Texas DPS trooper cannot issue ticket in New Mexico, etc.  There is no argument in this regard.  I would think this would be a primary defense. 

But it is a bit of a unique situation where one is issued a permit which one MUST comply with otherwise be in violation of the permit.  A privilege is granted by a permit to travel the river from the USA and then camp on either side.  So if a ranger observed someone violating their permit, while camping in Mexico pursuant to the authorization provided by the permit, can a citation be issued? I think the answer has to be yes.  So perhaps the argument should be how and where the ticket was served and not the fact the ticket was issued.

Al

[mediopelo]

It is absolutely illegal for U. S. officers to enter Mexico to issue a ticket but I believe that this is basically a case of bad reporting and that that did not happen. It seems to be simply a case of violating the terms of their permit, and the U. S. government has an obligation to Mexico to enforce the permit conditions with regard to actions in Mexican territory. 

[homerboy2u]

It is absolutely illegal for U. S. officers to enter Mexico to issue a ticket but I believe that this is basically a case of bad reporting and that that did not happen. It seems to be simply a case of violating the terms of their permit, and the U. S. government has an obligation to Mexico to enforce the permit conditions with regard to actions in Mexican territory. 

 Agreed, i think this is a case of bad reporting, or?...there should be a follow up on this with more in depht  sourcing.

[TexasAggieHiker]

As an author and well know river runner, Bowden should have been doing more than just following the rules.  He should be holding himself to a higher standard and setting an example for others to follow.  He also should have received a ticket for the waste violation.

That being said, if the ranger entered Mexico to issue the ticket, he was in the wrong as well.  If an official from another country tried to give me a ticket for something in the US, I would raise a **** storm.

[oldfatman]

Sorry Al, the USA cannot write a valid permit for the use of Mexico lands.

[Al]

Then it is illegal to camp on the Mexican side.

Al