Rafters get citation in Mexico

[Casa Grande]

Unless you can find a written agreement between the two countries that Mexico will recognize the authority of the US to issue such violations, tear it up and take it to court.  But, alas, that will not happen.  That is why the permit will be held up by authorities and the fine will be paid.  And so it goes....just sit back folks and take it!  There's nothing you're going to do about it so you may as well make it easy on yourself and use the jelly.

[Roy]

Sorry if I came on over aggressive in that last post; I was in a hurry.

I do think they should have been more conscientious about living up to the rules.  But
my concern is that this kind of thing could stir up resentment.  Mexico can be pretty touchy (often with good reason) about US officials overstepping their bounds, and I'd hate to see it cause the situation along the border to get worse;  like Joe says, the border towns got hit really hard after 9-11.  I guess I'm seeing the Rangers actions as trying to enforce Park regulations to the letter of the law and causing problems.  Joe sees it just the opposite;  trying to enforce border law too aggressively as the problem.  He knows the Rangers, knows the area better than I do, and trusting the guys on the ground often the best policy.  Tough call.

I just pray the politicians (both ours and theirs) don't get ahold of this. 

[EdB]

Seems like the easiest (maybe the smartest) thing would have been to cite them for the improper waste disposal and let 'em go on the lack of firepan. That would still get the point across but eliminate the issue of jurisdiction, wouldn't it?

[Joe]

Sorry if I came on over aggressive in that last post; I was in a hurry..

Hey, no offense taken by me, Roy; I enjoy a good debate.

I just pray the politicians (both ours and theirs) don't get ahold of this.

Amen to that!

[Lorax]

The Wild and Scenic River Designation carries across the border.  Rangers patrol the W & S River to enforce regulations.   US and Mexico co-operate on very few things but the maps show the area designated as wild and scenic on both sides.  That's why the Park writes permits.

[Lorax]

 mediopelo said "If the people had not had a river use permit the rangers would have had no grounds to charge them with anything other than not having the permit once they re-entered U. S. territory."

It's not that simple since 9/11/2001. They would be arrested and transported to Alpine, TX or Del Rio, Tx depending where they violated the border closure.

The river permit exempts a person from having to re-enter the US via a port of entry when the cross into Mexico.  Since May 2002 the borders of the US have been closed and travelers must enter via a port of entry.

[homerboy2u]

Two opinions & 1 question:

 Opinions......

   The grounds to have these gentlemen cited for lighting up a fire on the MEXICAN SIDE resides on them issuing a permit on the U.S. side to raft the Rio Grande , to me that is the whole case to have it ended. They got in on the U.S. side, they accepted U.S. regulations...you get a citation for breaking the rules, dumb or not.You signed it. You AGREED.

 Now if i put in on Santa Elena,Boquillas,San Vicente,Ojo Caliente...where ever on the Mexican side and these rangers approach me on the Mexican side to give me a citation for lighting a fire on my side (Mexico) of the turf...they can bill me!!!.Like hell i will pay for a fine under those circumstances. I can even have them arrested for infringing on Mexican territory.

 Question......

 I am a Mexican who puts in on any part of the U.S.side (Lajitas,For Ever sites,where ever) i raft down river to be picked up on La Linda or San Rosendo Canyon (both Mexican put outs). Is this illegal?. I want to add that i entered U.S. soil from Eagle Pass or Del Rio,Tx.

 Again,this is just a conversation with a spike of friendly debate.

[Lorax]

Homero,

If you enter the US legally, you have to follow US laws/ regulations.  At Lejitas, there is a self permitting stop at the Warnock Center for river runners and other back country users, I'm not sure if farther down your way there are places to self permit. 

If you put your boat in the Rio at a put-in without a notice that you need a permit, I'd say that you would be warned if a ranger came upon you camping on the US side. 

If I went to San Elena, MX, by law, I would have to go to a port of entry as you did to legally enter the US.  If I'm in a canoe and have a river permit, I can move back and forth between the two banks of the Rio for as long as my permit lasts.  I still can't legally enter Santa Elena, MX.

[badknees]

The Wild and Scenic River Designation carries across the border. Rangers patrol the W & S River to enforce regulations.  US and Mexico co-operate on very few things but the maps show the area designated as wild and scenic on both sides. That's why the Park writes permits.

I think not

Please cite your source.

from http://www.rivers.gov/wsr-rio-grande-texas.html

Designated Reach: November 10, 1978. The segment on the United States side of the river from river mile 842.3 above Mariscal Canyon downstream to river mile 651.1 at the Terrell-Val Verde County line.

And as ammended in June 2008

To amend the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act to modify the boundary of the Rio Grande Wild and Scenic River.


Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Rio Grande Wild and Scenic River Extension Act of 2008'.

SEC. 2. RIO GRANDE WILD AND SCENIC RIVER BOUNDARY ADJUSTMENT.

Paragraph (17) of section 3(a) of the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act (16 U.S.C. 1274(a)) is amended to read as follows:

`(17) RIO GRANDE, TEXAS-

`(A) IN GENERAL- The segment on the United States side of the river from the west boundary of Big Bend National Park, located at approximately river mile 902.2, downstream to the river mile 651.1 at the Terrell-Val Verde County line; to be administered by the Secretary of the Interior.

`(B) MAP- The segment described in subparagraph (A) is depicted on the map relating to the Rio Grande Wild and Scenic River titled `Proposed Wild & Scenic River Addition', numbered 192/80,001, and dated March 1, 2007.

`(C) BOUNDARY- The Secretary shall, within two years after the date of enactment of the Rio Grande Wild and Scenic River Extension Act of 2008, take such action with respect to the segment referred to in this paragraph as is provided for under subsection (b). The action required by subsection (b) shall be undertaken by the Secretary, after consultation with the United States Commissioner, International Boundary and Water Commission, United States and Mexico, and appropriate officials of the State of Texas and its political subdivisions. The development plan required by subsection (b) shall be construed to be a general management plan only for the United States side of the river and shall include, but not be limited to, the establishment of a detailed boundary which shall include an average of not more than 160 acres per mile.

`(D) TREATIES AND AGREEMENTS- Nothing in this Act shall be construed to be in conflict with--

`(i) the commitments or agreements of the United States made by or in pursuance of the treaty between the United States and Mexico regarding the utilization of the Colorado and Tijuana Rivers and of the Rio Grande, signed at Washington, February 1944 (59 Stat. 1219), or

`(ii) the treaty between the United States and Mexico regarding maintenance of the Rio Grande and Colorado River as the international boundary between the United States and Mexico, signed November 23, 1970.'.

The NPS has no jurisdiction beyond the international boundary, clearly defined as the middle of the deepest channel. I believe I'd see the LE Ranger in court.

[presidio]

Where is Presidio?

I'm on it.

Did that "ranger" have permission to bring weapons and ammunition across the border into Mexico?  As far as I am concerned the ranger is wrong.  No matter how much you say you have authority in another country, you do not, period.  The rafters were not doing right by not using fire pan, but they do not have to obey USA law in Mexico.  I doubt the cost of fighting this crap is worth the bother.

Could it be that the rafters and ranger were making illegal entry into Mexico? Maybe, but the ticket was not about illegal entry. Some ranger's butt needs an official kicking.

a) Rangers have NO authority beyond the international boundary, regardless of what they think. This is an excellent example of being both overzealous and completely out of touch with reality, not to mention an apparent complete inability to understand what it is they are enforcing and what their limits are. This is stupid beyond belief.

The NPS only compounds the issue by saying 'take it to the judge'. Their ranger is wrong and they know it, but cannot bring themselves to admit such and, if the citation is not contested, then they will never have to admit error.

A professional organization would fess up, admit the mistake, correct the ranger's lack of knowledge about law and move on.

Since many folks will not contest a citation because the fine is relatively low and a personal appearance in court (in either Big Bend or Alpine...wherever it is they do these things) is time consuming, the NPS freqently 'gets away' with questionable enforcement actions. The recipients of the citation should fight this....they will win.

It does not matter what a permittee 'agrees' to on a permit. Once the permittee leaves the jurisdiction of the issuing agency, none of the provisions are enforceable. The explanation in the newspaper article ring totally hollow. The NPS does not control what happens beyond the international boundary, no matter how much they want to, or how much they are offended by something they can see.

b) If that Ranger had been seen by Mexican authorities he most certainly would have been detained for unauthorized entry and possession of a handgun. Too bad that didn't happen. The Border Patrol routinely detains Mexican authorities who 'accidentally' find themselves north of the border (I can see accidental entry occurring in NM/AZ/CA where there is a line in the sand...it's pretty difficult to miss the Rio Grande as a border).

Could it be that the rafters and ranger were making illegal entry into Mexico? Maybe, but the ticket was not about illegal entry.

It most certainly was NOT about illegal entry into Mexico. That is an issue for Mexican police. As far as crossing the boundary and returning to the US (now illegal under the moronic DHS policy), river users are exempt and are allowed to leave and enter at will while running the river (taco lovers cannot similarly use the river to go to Boquillas....that is prohibited despite the fact that the end result is the same).

Now, here is an interesting twist....unless running the river on an administrative/patrol function NPS rangers have no more ability to cross the river and return than anyone else. Therefore, the citing ranger appears to have violated the border closure, while the rafters did not. In fact, even while running the river, the NPS does not have any authority to transport weapons into Mexico, even though everyone obviously overlooks the issue.

Oh man, this is an excellent case to spend some attorney money on. If the NPS is too stupid to void the citation, requesting a court appearance likely would result in the US Attorney's office deciding there is no case...because there most assuredly is none. The NPS may be hoping to skate on this one by the 'violators' not contesting it...but the US Attorney certainly will not want to appear stupid if it's headed for court.

[presidio]

I think Jan and the Rangers were basically right these guys (in particular) should follow the rules.

Wrong. This is not about what ought to be or would be nice to have, but about jurisdiction and abuse of authority. There was no jurisdiction and therefore an abuse of authority.

But the practical effect of this is that Bowden and Hayes are now "in the system" as violaters.  If they challenge the citation they'd probably beat it, but they'd never get a permit again.

You cannot 'violate' anything when the jurisdiction is inapplicable.

[presidio]

For the river environment’s protection and your safety, observe these regulations on both sides of the river and on private land along the Rio Grande Wild and Scenic River.

River users must contain campfires in firepans.

Absent some treaty, the NPS cannot grant itself jurisdiction outside the country. Even its authority on non-park lands is questionable...that would depend on enabling legislation.

I trust Mike to be firm but fair, and it sounds from the article like he did use his discretion and common sense in not issuing a citation for failure to carry out their solid human waste. I don’t blame him for enforcing the regulations and ticketing these guys for not using a firepan.  I don’t want to find the remains of a campfire, no matter how well cleaned up, at an otherwise pristine campsite in the Lower Canyons.

Doesn't seem to be much discretion at all. Ashes are problem but stepping in crap isn't? Please. You know why there was this discretion? He probably saw ashes (big deal, I guess in Disneyland) but even though they did not have a toilet he couldn't find any evidence they left any 'deposits'.

[presidio]

A delicate subject.  I think that if the persons are violating their permit they are violating their permit no matter which side of the river they are on.

Al

That's the kind of thought process the NPS wants you to have. Using that logic you could not do anything anywhere in the country because the NPS doesn't allow it and you agreed to follow their rules. That's no more farfetched than accepting they control what goes on across the river.

[badknees]

I think Jan and the Rangers were basically right these guys (in particular) should follow the rules.

Wrong. This is not about what ought to be or would be nice to have, but about jurisdiction and abuse of authority. There was no jurisdiction and therefore an abuse of authority.

But the practical effect of this is that Bowden and Hayes are now "in the system" as violaters.  If they challenge the citation they'd probably beat it, but they'd never get a permit again.

You cannot 'violate' anything when the jurisdiction is inapplicable.

Presido, Thank you.

It doesn't matter what anybody thinks about guys roasting marshmallows without a firepan. This is not about rules on proper river "etiquette". WTF does etiquette have to do with misuse of authority.

[presidio]

The fact is the rangers have no jurisdiction in Mexico. A privilege is granted by a permit to travel the river from the USA and then camp on either side.  So if a ranger observed someone violating their permit, while camping in Mexico pursuant to the authorization provided by the permit, can a citation be issued? I think the answer has to be yes.  So perhaps the argument should be how and where the ticket was served and not the fact the ticket was issued.

Al

You answer this in your first sentence. That being the case, nothing else follows. The NPS cannot grant permission to do or not do ANYTHING in Mexico. The citation is not only unwarranted, it is illegal.