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Big Bend Community => The Presidio Board => Topic started by: BigBendHiker on June 14, 2010, 06:20:00 AM

Title: Electrifying Development in Presidio
Post by: BigBendHiker on June 14, 2010, 06:20:00 AM
In today's San Antonio Express-News:

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/state/electrifying_development_in_presidio_96269063.html (http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/state/electrifying_development_in_presidio_96269063.html)
Title: Re: Electrifying Development in Presidio
Post by: TheWildWestGuy on June 14, 2010, 07:17:17 AM
I am curious as to just who is paying the several-thousand-dollars per resident for this battery to provide a backup power supply for Presidio.  It just seems like a huge waste of money to me when a diesel generator would probably have been a much cheaper and reliable technology.   TWWG
Title: Re: Electrifying Development in Presidio
Post by: Terlingua50337 on June 14, 2010, 09:15:41 AM
yeah but this is "green"
Title: Re: Electrifying Development in Presidio
Post by: WL2 on June 14, 2010, 10:05:00 AM
Well they did say it served a second purpose of stabilizing the grid from brown outs and spikes.
Title: Re: Electrifying Development in Presidio
Post by: bjbriggs on June 14, 2010, 10:22:40 AM
What ever happened to coal oil lamps and candles? :eusa_think: :eusa_think:
Title: Re: Electrifying Development in Presidio
Post by: RichardM on June 14, 2010, 10:55:24 AM
What ever happened to coal oil lamps and candles? :eusa_think: :eusa_think:
Kind of hard to get an A/C unit or computer server to run on those...
Title: Re: Electrifying Development in Presidio
Post by: MilesOfTexas on June 14, 2010, 02:41:22 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if there is a generator in the mix.  In most battery backup configurations in large scales, the battery backup is usually only there to catch the second or two between an outage and a generator kicking in, with enough power to last a few hours in case of a generator failure.

Perhaps in the case there isn't a generator in the configuration, but it may be that the article is just spot focusing on the battery system.
Title: Re: Electrifying Development in Presidio
Post by: Robert on June 14, 2010, 03:14:03 PM
Based on the article, it doesn't appear to use a generator.

Quote
When the monster battery is at full capacity, it will be capable of powering Presidio for eight hours at a time.
Title: Re: Electrifying Development in Presidio
Post by: BigBendHiker on June 14, 2010, 04:52:51 PM
It sounds like it is just a very large uninterruptible power supply (UPS) system consisting of only batteries and an inverter. 

We used UPS's on our distributed control systems that used for process control at the chemical plant I used to work at.  It was just batteries (usually lead acid) and an inverter and automatic throw-over switch.
Title: Re: Electrifying Development in Presidio
Post by: Cookie on June 15, 2010, 12:41:48 PM
I am curious as to just who is paying the several-thousand-dollars per resident for this battery to provide a backup power supply for Presidio.  It just seems like a huge waste of money to me when a diesel generator would probably have been a much cheaper and reliable technology.   TWWG
I agree with that! They spent roughly $6000 per person to put that in.  For $6000 you can buy a sweet generator, LARGE propane tank and fill it up. If you had a family of 4 you would have $24000 to get a back up system. I may be wrong, but I think the batteries are only good for about 5 years, and then they need to be replaced.
seems to make perfect (government) sense to me :eusa_think:................... ................... ....... :willynilly:
~Cookie
Title: Re: Electrifying Development in Presidio
Post by: Terlingua50337 on June 15, 2010, 01:26:22 PM
You know, most of the electrical power for Hawaii is generated from diesel powered power plants.
Title: Re: Electrifying Development in Presidio
Post by: BigBendHiker on June 15, 2010, 06:02:27 PM
I am curious as to just who is paying the several-thousand-dollars per resident for this battery to provide a backup power supply for Presidio.  It just seems like a huge waste of money to me when a diesel generator would probably have been a much cheaper and reliable technology.   TWWG
I agree with that! They spent roughly $6000 per person to put that in.  For $6000 you can buy a sweet generator, LARGE propane tank and fill it up. If you had a family of 4 you would have $24000 to get a back up system. I may be wrong, but I think the batteries are only good for about 5 years, and then they need to be replaced.
seems to make perfect (government) sense to me :eusa_think:................... ................... ....... :willynilly:
~Cookie

You are correct.  The lead acid batteries have to be replaced periodically.  Not sure about these sodium batteries that they are using.

Title: Re: Electrifying Development in Presidio
Post by: Undertaker on June 15, 2010, 08:56:34 PM
I love it now as soon as all of you buy an electric car coming from Houston it will only take you about 10 days to drive to BB. :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:
Title: Re: Electrifying Development in Presidio
Post by: TheWildWestGuy on June 16, 2010, 09:43:22 PM
It only takes me 10 hours and about $100 worth of gas to get to BB right now.  That would be more in time and less in dollars if I drove the posted speed limit on I-10 past Kerrville  :icon_wink:.  But as they say time = money.

$6K/Resident to experiment with this massive battery complex?  Why Presidio - a place so far removed from the rest of the world that nobody will notice it if it goes wrong, wastes money, or creates a new superfund site?   Who is paying for this?  I am guessing that the local residents, County, and State are not paying for this experiment so who is?  What happens to the massive battery complex when it needs to be replaced after a few years?  The "carbon cost" of this experiment needs to include recycling or disposing of all those massive batteries after they have become obsolete or unservicable (4-12 years?).   Inquiring minds want to know and I am not buying the BS of it as a public-service for the residents of Presidio.   There has got to be more to the story... TWWG
Title: Re: Electrifying Development in Presidio
Post by: bdann on June 16, 2010, 10:04:41 PM
This group is installing the systems: http://www.ettexas.com/ (http://www.ettexas.com/) 

More info:  http://www.ettexas.com/projects/docs/NaS_Battery_Overview.pdf (http://www.ettexas.com/projects/docs/NaS_Battery_Overview.pdf)

Title: Re: Electrifying Development in Presidio
Post by: Al on June 16, 2010, 10:10:04 PM
This group is installing the systems: http://www.ettexas.com/ (http://www.ettexas.com/) 

More info:  http://www.ettexas.com/projects/docs/NaS_Battery_Overview.pdf (http://www.ettexas.com/projects/docs/NaS_Battery_Overview.pdf)



Incredible technology capable of storing a tremendous amount of energy without the primary use of heavy metals!  Those are for profit corporations so the decision was not made lightly, no pun intended.

Al
Title: Re: Electrifying Development in Presidio
Post by: badknees on June 16, 2010, 10:26:05 PM
You know, most of the electrical power for Hawaii is generated from diesel powered power plants.

They could produce 100% from geothermal, but they had a steam release in 1991 that created an environmental uproar. They are slowy increasing their output again.

"Blowout Shuts Geothermal Unit in Hawaii
June 15, 1991|SUSAN ESSOYAN, SPECIAL TO THE TIMESHONOLULU Hawaii state officials ordered a geothermal company to halt all drilling Friday after a well blowout spewed toxic gas and routed 75 people from their homes on the island of Hawaii.

Opponents of geothermal drilling near the nation's last remaining tropical rain forest claimed the accident shows Hawaii's volcanic resource may be unmanageable.

White sulfuric steam roared uncontrolled for more than 30 hours from the Puna Geothermal Venture well before the company managed to cap it at shortly after dawn Friday.

The accident took place in rural Pohoiki, about 10 miles from the Wao Keleo Puna rain forest, where drilling by another firm has triggered an international outcry from environmentalists.

"The experts gave us odds of 1,000 to 1 against a blowout," said Steve Philips, a farmer who lives a mile from the site and was jarred awake before midnight Wednesday by the explosion. "Now, I can't believe a thing."

The blowout sounded like a jet airplane taking off, he said, except that it did not let up for two nights and a day. The noise, which got as high as 90 decibels, and the rotten-egg stench of hydrogen sulfide prompted the evacuations, according to Harry Kim, Hawaii County civil defense administrator. One worker suffered a minor injury in the blowout.

Even before the accident, geothermal development was among Hawaii's most heated issues. Scores of protesters have been arrested as they tried to to stop it. Environmentalists say it endangers the last major tract of lowland tropical rain forest in the United States. Residents argue that it threatens their health and safety, and some native Hawaiians decry it as a violation of the volcano goddess, Pele.

Norman Clark, project manager at Puna Geothermal Venture, which is owned by Ormat Energy System of Sparks, Nev., said the drill rig hit an extremely hot, high-pressure steam zone at 3,475 feet, far sooner than expected. But the blowout was not serious, he said. "We can drill and control anything that's in Hawaii," he said.

Puna Geothermal Venture had planned to begin generating the first geothermal energy in Hawaii as early as next month at its 25-megawatt plant, but that date may now be pushed back. The state Department of Health and the county ordered the company to stop drilling while the incident is investigated.


http://www.punageothermalventure.com/ (http://www.punageothermalventure.com/)

Title: Re: Electrifying Development in Presidio
Post by: Al on June 16, 2010, 10:47:54 PM
You know, most of the electrical power for Hawaii is generated from diesel powered power plants.

They could produce 100% from geothermal, but they had a steam release in 1991 that created an environmental uproar. They are slowy increasing their output again.

"Blowout Shuts Geothermal Unit in Hawaii
June 15, 1991|SUSAN ESSOYAN, SPECIAL TO THE TIMESHONOLULU Hawaii state officials ordered a geothermal company to halt all drilling Friday after a well blowout spewed toxic gas and routed 75 people from their homes on the island of Hawaii.

Opponents of geothermal drilling near the nation's last remaining tropical rain forest claimed the accident shows Hawaii's volcanic resource may be unmanageable.

White sulfuric steam roared uncontrolled for more than 30 hours from the Puna Geothermal Venture well before the company managed to cap it at shortly after dawn Friday.

The accident took place in rural Pohoiki, about 10 miles from the Wao Keleo Puna rain forest, where drilling by another firm has triggered an international outcry from environmentalists.

"The experts gave us odds of 1,000 to 1 against a blowout," said Steve Philips, a farmer who lives a mile from the site and was jarred awake before midnight Wednesday by the explosion. "Now, I can't believe a thing."

The blowout sounded like a jet airplane taking off, he said, except that it did not let up for two nights and a day. The noise, which got as high as 90 decibels, and the rotten-egg stench of hydrogen sulfide prompted the evacuations, according to Harry Kim, Hawaii County civil defense administrator. One worker suffered a minor injury in the blowout.

Even before the accident, geothermal development was among Hawaii's most heated issues. Scores of protesters have been arrested as they tried to to stop it. Environmentalists say it endangers the last major tract of lowland tropical rain forest in the United States. Residents argue that it threatens their health and safety, and some native Hawaiians decry it as a violation of the volcano goddess, Pele.

Norman Clark, project manager at Puna Geothermal Venture, which is owned by Ormat Energy System of Sparks, Nev., said the drill rig hit an extremely hot, high-pressure steam zone at 3,475 feet, far sooner than expected. But the blowout was not serious, he said. "We can drill and control anything that's in Hawaii," he said.

Puna Geothermal Venture had planned to begin generating the first geothermal energy in Hawaii as early as next month at its 25-megawatt plant, but that date may now be pushed back. The state Department of Health and the county ordered the company to stop drilling while the incident is investigated.


http://www.punageothermalventure.com/ (http://www.punageothermalventure.com/)



BK, were H2S and SO2 the toxic gases or was it CO?  If ever there was a driver both economically and from a carbon emissions viewpoint, geothermal appears to make perfect sense.

Al
Title: Re: Electrifying Development in Presidio
Post by: Al on June 17, 2010, 12:06:45 AM
Lost of service means loss of income.  Thank goodness it is justified without a stimulus from our tax dollars. This appears to be what we are all about.  Free market based on a reasonable profit.

Al