Big Bend Chat

Big Bend Community => The Terlingua/Study Butte Board => Topic started by: iCe on February 20, 2017, 05:03:55 PM

Title: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: iCe on February 20, 2017, 05:03:55 PM
What kind if idiot does this?


http://texashillcountry.com/historic-terlingua-ghost-town-ruins-destroyed/
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Txlj on February 20, 2017, 05:55:11 PM
I hate stupid.

Sent from flat land

Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: rocketman on February 20, 2017, 06:32:21 PM
My guess is that they were under 30 and from "the city". Stupid assholes. And we wonder why the NPS shuts down access to its treasures...
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: fc7cuda on February 20, 2017, 06:38:08 PM
My guess is that they were under 30 and from "the city". Stupid assholes. And we wonder why the NPS shuts down access to its treasures...

From the city?  I'm not sure what you mean, but hope it's not discriminatory.  Hopefully the vandals will be caught and dealt with.


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Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: iCe on February 20, 2017, 06:47:32 PM
It's hard to know who did it.


Would you have thought scout leaders would toppled ancient formations in Goblin Valley State Park?


https://youtu.be/t1ft2q4ckQI


The asshats were leaving the park as we arrived. They and the troop were in the gift shop. They (leaders not kids) were loud, obnoxious, and rude. I was glad they were leaving
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: rocketman on February 20, 2017, 09:39:22 PM

From the city?  I'm not sure what you mean, but hope it's not discriminatory.  Hopefully the vandals will be caught and dealt with.

Discriminatory how? I doubt the ruins were toppled by local hoodlums on a peyote bender or a random cattle stampede. No, it was probably people with little respect for culture and ignorant of the significance of historical and primitive artifacts. You know.....ctiy people.
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: fartymarty on February 21, 2017, 10:24:57 AM

From the city?  I'm not sure what you mean, but hope it's not discriminatory. 
Discriminatory how?.......You know.....ctiy people.

Because of variations in sensitivity about racial issues, various euphemisms have developed since the 80s, where suburban = white, and urban = African-American.
Since you put quotes around "the city" Tom may have thought you could possibly mean " The City = Urban = African American".  The euphemisms may have originally developed
to avoid offending people during honest racial relations discussions, but there is another side of that coin. Where the euphemisms are used for racist discussions where upon the
other racists can knowingly understand (wink wink nudge nudge) and yet racism can still be officially denied because of the use of euphenisms.
 I'm sure that was not the case here, but I agree it was probably done by ....well to be honest it could have been done by locals...not all feel the same about things just because they live in the same area.
  If it is designated as a historical site, and if you are the owner and want to build something new there or sell to someone who does, do you have to "Un-historic" it first?
 I guess that thought is a little far out there, it's likely more to do with excessive alcohol consumption than either peyote or future financial planning.

Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: fartymarty on February 21, 2017, 10:30:46 AM
It just occurred to me that if I lived out on Terligua Ranch somewhere and it took me about 30 minutes to reach pavement, that I might just think that those that lived in Study Butte, were "city people".  :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: House Made of Dawn on February 21, 2017, 10:51:18 AM
I grew up in rural North-Central Texas and even-more-rural Southwest Oklahoma. Farm boy. Cotton picker. Pig farmer. And I thought city people were kinda dumb. Now I live in East Dallas. I can walk to the library, the organic grocery, the farmers' market, a bus route, light rail, or even call Uber for a ride if I want one.

Oh. My. God. I've become city people.
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: House Made of Dawn on February 21, 2017, 10:55:10 AM
That said, both iCe and Rocketman make a good point: with all the yahoos out there (wherever they may be from), NPS and other stewards are saddled with an almost impossible job of managing vulnerable public lands.
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: rocketman on February 21, 2017, 11:43:27 AM
I assure you all that there was no discriminatory intent or derogatory racial euphemism implied. I apologize if it was interpreted as such, but my mind just doesn't work that way. Perhaps I should have said "City Slickers", as in the movie. Yes, it is possible that the vandalism was perpetrated by locals, however I think that is unlikely. As a part-time local myself (see Marty's post), none of the local people I know would ever willingly destroy another's private property. With that said, I suppose someone out there could be against Bill Ivey's desire to continue development of the downtown area, and maybe, just maybe take the risk of trespassing and vandalism charges to make their dissatisfaction known. But again, it was probably just ignorant drunk city folk who don't give a crap about preserving rural artifacts.
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: badknees on February 21, 2017, 01:39:47 PM
It's almost a certainty that alcohol was involved.
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Al on February 21, 2017, 01:48:46 PM
It's almost a certainty that alcohol was involved.

and teenagers.
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Slimkitty on February 21, 2017, 04:49:13 PM
It's almost a certainty that alcohol was involved.


"Alcohol"?  Come on now, I hope that wasn't meant to be discriminatory.


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Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Jimbow on February 21, 2017, 04:58:22 PM
Would someone from Alpine be city folk? Marathon? Or do we only have three or four cities in Texas?

Regardless of where they currently call home they certainly don't know the difference between a ruin (junk pile) and a historic ruin (junk pile). They have no respect for other people's property. And likely may never be caught.

I really believe some people are just ignorant.


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Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: iCe on February 21, 2017, 05:19:03 PM
Junk pile? Maybe someone should mow down Hovenweep, the junk at Chaco Canyon, all that trash under the cliffs of Mesa Verde. Junk abounds...
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Jimbow on February 21, 2017, 06:59:56 PM
Junk pile? Maybe someone should mow down Hovenweep, the junk at Chaco Canyon, all that trash under the cliffs of Mesa Verde. Junk abounds...
How many half falling down buildings do we pass driving through Texas? My point is a half falling down wall may be historic or it may by just an old half falling down wall. Some people don't care to understand the difference.

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Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: tjavery on February 23, 2017, 09:37:41 AM
Does anyone know exactly which ruins were pushed over?

Based on what I've seen on Facebook, it appears to be these:

(http://thomasjavery.com/bb_jan16/ruins.jpg)

Here's a distant shot showing all of them (prior to destruction):

(http://thomasjavery.com/bb_jan16/ruins2.jpg)

And two other shots that are closer:

(http://thomasjavery.com/bb_sept10/2720.jpg)

(http://thomasjavery.com/bb_jan16/8078.jpg)

Can anyone confirm?
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: iCe on February 23, 2017, 05:54:55 PM

Junk pile? Maybe someone should mow down Hovenweep, the junk at Chaco Canyon, all that trash under the cliffs of Mesa Verde. Junk abounds...

How many half falling down buildings do we pass driving through Texas? My point is a half falling down wall may be historic or it may by just an old half falling down wall. Some people don't care to understand the difference.

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I think adobe construction, historic mining area, things like that would a fairly powerful clue. And of course there is the simple fact that one shouldn't wander around on other peoples property and destroy anything. It doesn't matter what they thought it was... they didn't own it.


I take this as your point "Some people don't care to understand the difference."


The web is a horrible place to have this kind of conversation. I doubt there would be any misunderstanding if we were talking face to face.
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Jimbow on February 23, 2017, 05:58:07 PM
Exactly. I wasn't trying to excuse their behavior,  just trying to explain it. Plenty of stupid people out there. The idiots in the video didn't think they were doing anything wrong.

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Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: iCe on February 23, 2017, 06:29:53 PM
Quote
"The idiots in the video didn't think they were doing anything wrong."


That simply amazes me but I know you are right. They were leading a scout troop... Not the best roll models imho
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Jimbow on February 23, 2017, 08:22:20 PM
As far as Scout leaders I signed the front of the check for 25 years and the back of the check for about five. The vast majority were really good role models which made the worst ones look that much worse.

There are a couple churches out there that "call" leaders to service. They may or may not wish to be leaders. They may or may not participate in training.

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Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Quatro on February 23, 2017, 10:42:22 PM
My point is a half falling down wall may be historic or it may by just an old half falling down wall. Some people don't care to understand the difference.

I appreciate that you look at all sides rather than assume the worst, Jimbow.  I try to do the same. Defense attorneys like me on juries.

Unlike the scout leaders though, these guys did it between 2 and 6 a.m. under the cover of darkness. They knew it was somewhere between mischievous and dead wrong.  So I'm ready to pull out the pitchforks in this case.
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Jimbow on February 24, 2017, 06:06:08 AM
I'll bring the torches.

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Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Jimbow on February 24, 2017, 06:23:11 AM
I hope y'all don't think I was excusing their behavior or suggesting they shouldn't be punished. Ignorance is not a defense. I see a range of possibilities based on prior instances like this.

Owners of historical buildings have been caught destroying them so they could do something more lucrative with the land. That's a nice juicy theory.

Drunks not realizing the significance of what they were destroying by knocking down some old brick walls is another. That's a boring theory.

Occam's Razor guides me to the drunk idiot theory.

Now here's a thought,  what is missing from the Bibe hardscape that we wish was still there?



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Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: iCe on February 24, 2017, 06:55:13 AM
Quote
Now here's a thought,  what is missing from the Bibe hardscape that we wish was still there? [/size][/color]



The following are all Catch-22. Build it and they will come (and mess stuff up)


The buildings of Terlingua Abaja,  Dorgan House, and other various ranch houses. I'd like to see how they lived a little more clearly


More than any of that I wish the cottonwood trees were still intact and the well still pumped at Dugout Wells
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Jimbow on February 24, 2017, 07:05:19 AM
"They" will come. They (not we) will zoom past in cars to see what man made things survive for generations. It is probably part of our desire for immortality.

While I would like to see that,  hiking through the different landscapes (cottonwoods) by era would be a dream come true.

Imagine if the NPS had control of the ghost town,  better or worse?

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Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: iCe on February 24, 2017, 07:24:03 AM
"They" will come. They (not we) will zoom past in cars to see what man made things survive for generations. It is probably part of our desire for immortality.

While I would like to see that,  hiking through the different landscapes (cottonwoods) by era would be a dream come true.

Imagine if the NPS had control of the ghost town,  better or worse?

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It's a photographer thing. We stop or turn around to photograph old cemeteries, old buildings that are barely there, etc.


Ditto the cottonwoods.


The ghost town might have ended up like Lunas Jacal (concrete roof? really?) or maybe just maintained. It depends on when they ended up with it.


Sometimes they leave things alone or to visitors to maintain. For instance,  I spent one night in "the geologist's cabin" in Death Valley a few years ago. When we arrived my friend and guide said something to the effect of "oh, they put in a much nicer latrine" or whatever he called it, as we pulled up. It was very nice. The hole was deep, the amenities were nice. It even had a solar charged, battery operated LED light that came on you opened the door. We probably spent 30 minutes trying to make a "Dr. Who" photo from this


(http://wildlightimagingstudio.com/img/s12/v185/p233773160-4.jpg)


When I got home my friend sent me a link to a DV forum. 1/2 the posts were outcries from people about how the anonymous "shi**er installers" had desecrated a great historic sight and the others pointed to the god awful pile of crap and ceramic that was at the bottom of the ravine that is to the left of the latrine in the  photo as being much worse. Personally... I was glad the new latrine was installed there. It must have been quite an undertaking to get it there. High clearance definitely required. 4WD is nice.


I don't have any outside views of the geologist's cabin. Here's a couple from inside. The ornamental wood "thing" that you see in the second image is the back of a chair. The window looks east (obviously) and I was shooting over a small table. Stone construction and floors. We had a fire every night in DV.


(http://wildlightimagingstudio.com/img/s/v-2/p165539691-4.jpg)


(http://wildlightimagingstudio.com/img/s/v-2/p1938991211-4.jpg)
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Jimbow on February 24, 2017, 07:28:20 AM
Once again,  thank you for sharing your photos. I am marveling at how you captured the cleaning swirls on the glass. What an eye and the skills to capture.

Hopefully the new shitter will be preserved for generations. Lol

I was thinking about Luna's old house. If someone owned that land I'm not certain they would have saved it, especially if they wanted to build something right there.  We tear down old buildings every day. Why do some get preserved and not others? As a society we decide what is historic and how it should be preserved. Maybe a future generation will decide that some 3D, interactive,  hologram is enough.

Too much time on my hands this morning.

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Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: tjavery on February 24, 2017, 10:13:14 AM
There's a line about a cheap watch in one of the Indiana Jones movies. It's worthless now, but if you bury in the desert and leave it for a few hundred years it becomes priceless.

The main thing that concerns me about the ruins being knocked over is that there could potentially be new restrictions placed on access in the Ghost Town. It's private property, and who ever owns it (Bill Ivey owns most of it I think) has been gracious enough to allow the public to enjoy it up close. That's probably going to change soon.
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Jimbow on February 24, 2017, 07:07:46 PM
Move the trailhead. I'm only partly joking.

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Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: rocketman on February 24, 2017, 11:24:46 PM
Move the trailhead. I'm only partly joking.
Which part?

Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: presidio on February 25, 2017, 12:24:30 AM
Imagine if the NPS had control of the ghost town,  better or worse?

Considering that the NPS early-on destroyed many of the historic ranch buildings in the park (and likely some mining ones), their preservation record is sketchy at best. The agency removed those things that did not fit their definition of worth, or their image of what should be preserved.

Would they do it differently today? Maybe, maybe not.
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Jimbow on February 25, 2017, 02:37:07 AM
People preserve what they think is worth preserving,  or what they are forced to.

My first thought is private preservation with an economic benefit to the owner is probably best,  but the public may not have access.

Public ownership offer access but possibly not the budget.

I'm not an expert by any means,  who does have the best track record in preserving something like the ghost town?

The views expressed may not be mine in five minutes.

Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: dprather on February 25, 2017, 08:05:36 AM
What kind if idiot does this?


http://texashillcountry.com/historic-terlingua-ghost-town-ruins-destroyed/

The same kind who painted Enchanted Rock
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: marufo on February 25, 2017, 11:05:34 AM
Quote
Considering that the NPS early-on destroyed many of the historic ranch buildings in the park (and likely some mining ones), their preservation record is sketchy at best. The agency removed those things that did not fit their definition of worth, or their image of what should be preserved.

Would they do it differently today? Maybe, maybe not.

I'm sure they would. The National Park idea is only 100 years old and there has definitely been a learning curve. Fifty years ago it was not realized that suppressing all fires would only lead to more destructive ones. Fifty years ago the NPS was still pushing flaming logs off the waterfalls in Yosemite for the spectacle and putting up bleachers in Yellowstone so visitors could watch the bears raid the garbage cans. But what I think people who are inclined to think of the NPS as "them" don't adequately realize is the degree to which NPS policies have always reflected what the public wanted from their National Parks at the time.

If you're not familiar with this, it is a great introduction to how NPS management has tried to meet the varied and changing expectations of what Big Bend National Park "should be." You're welcome to disagree with some NPS decisions (I certainly do) but if you think those decisions are capricious or not taken seriously, you should read this: https://www.nps.gov/bibe/learn/historyculture/adhi.htm

Quotes from that administrative history re the destruction of historical structures:

Quote
Superintendents and their staffs from Ross Maxwell
in the 1940s to Jose Cisneros in the 1990s had to reconcile visitor expectations, park needs,
budget constraints, changes in scientific research, and NPS policy directives that shifted from the
promotion of scenery to the championing of ecology to the rehabilitation of cultural landscapes.

Quote
Recreation, especially for a war-weary nation just embarking upon
the “baby boom” of the 1950s and early 1960s, dictated strategies for recreation rather than
science, and the removal of “eyesores” and “hazards” from parks like Big Bend.

Quote
Curtis Schaafsma remembered in particular
the time that the famed nature photographer Ansel Adams visited Big Bend (1947), with Harold
Schaafsma serving as his personal guide. “Harold shared that late 1940s romantic vision of
protecting pristine nature,” said his son five decades later; a perspective that Adams promoted in
books, calendars, and brochures about the wonders of the national parks.
In order to fulfill this vision, the park service and superintendent Maxwell could not
devote much attention to scientific research. Instead, they would remove old structures from the
landscape that marred the beauty and/or starkness that evoked such a vision of serenity and
escape. In 1951, architect Kenneth Saunders advised NPS director Conrad Wirth that the park
service could not afford the cost of rehabilitation of the many facilities at parks like Big Bend that
the NPS had inherited. Reductions in the budget for park maintenance during the Korean conflict
further convinced Saunders of the merits of this policy. Thus Maxwell set out to remove such
historic sites as Glenn Springs, and the famed bathhouses at Hot Springs. The park’s roads and
trails crew, recalled longtime maintenance worker Francisco Grano, would be sent out to remove
these buildings. “Waddy Burnham’s house [at Government Spring] was very nice,” said Grano,
“but it was torn down.” Local ranchers like Hallie Stillwell long remembered with bitterness this
destruction of their memories. Yet Reece Sholley McNatt, widow of chief ranger George
Sholley, would recall in 1996 that “the Hot Springs bath house had terrible sanitation.” Its
proprietor, Maggie Smith, “didn’t have a permit,” said McNatt, “and didn’t keep the tubs clean.”
Thus “the old buildings had to be destroyed, and Maggie was crosswise with the NPS over this
and other issues.”
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Flash on February 25, 2017, 09:26:19 PM
Quote
Considering that the NPS early-on destroyed many of the historic ranch buildings in the park (and likely some mining ones), their preservation record is sketchy at best. The agency removed those things that did not fit their definition of worth, or their image of what should be preserved.

Would they do it differently today? Maybe, maybe not.

<snipped>

Blue Creek Ranch could have made a splendid "living history" exhibit (and still could). Why they could have a real pumping windmill (which would solve some of the bear box water wars).  I could probably do without the dinosaur exhibit, but to each his own...  Oh, and what I would give to see a section of Homer Wilson's panther-proof fence... This park is really not wilderness land, just about all of it saw use of some kind...
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: iCe on February 25, 2017, 09:32:38 PM
Quote
Considering that the NPS early-on destroyed many of the historic ranch buildings in the park (and likely some mining ones), their preservation record is sketchy at best. The agency removed those things that did not fit their definition of worth, or their image of what should be preserved.

Would they do it differently today? Maybe, maybe not.

<snipped>

Blue Creek Ranch could have made a splendid "living history" exhibit (and still could). Why they could have a real pimping windmill (which would solve some of the  bear box water wars).  I could probably do without the dinosaur exhibit, but to each his own...  Oh, and what I would give to see the section of Homer Wilson's panther-proof fence... This park is really not wilderness land, just about all of it saw use of some kind...


 :pissed: But... but... dinosaurs are sexy (and my grandson will be impressed until he sees the Denver Museum of Natural History) rawr... snarl... snappity snap :dance:



Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Flash on February 25, 2017, 09:43:11 PM
Oh, and I saw a balancing rock at Indian Head sitting on a pedestal of crumbly-looking shale, just waiting for a couple drunken billy-bob's to come by and tumble it over.  :icon_eek:
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: iCe on February 25, 2017, 09:46:31 PM
Oh, and I saw a balancing rock at Indian Head sitting on a pedestal of crumbly-looking shale, just waiting for a couple drunken billy-bob's to come by and tumble it over.  :shock:


 :icon_smile:  Maybe in Texas they have to be drunk to increase the safety of the public (the scout leaders claim) but in Utah they only have to be scout leaders :shock:
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: presidio on February 25, 2017, 11:23:32 PM
I could probably do without the dinosaur exhibit, but to each his own...  Oh, and what I would give to see a section of Homer Wilson's panther-proof fence... This park is really not wilderness land, just about all of it saw use of some kind...

It's all about entertaining tourists (the dinosaur exhibit) which is the true core mission of the NPS.

Anything farther than a quarter-mile (and frequently less) from pavement is of little interest to the crowd seeking that entertainment. Despite the fact that only a miniscule number of NPS tourists get very far beyond the entertainment zone, the NPS regulates the hell out of anyone wanting to go out there.

Working windmills, panther-proof fencing, falling-down historical structures and wild land do not draw the crowds the way entrance signs, passport stamps and curio shops do.

Therefore, you get an expensive exhibit that a lot of folks still won't drive out to see once the news splash and dash ended.

The exhibit was projected to cost $350,000 to $400,000 in a 2013 article. The actual cost was reported to be $1.4 million in a January 2017 article. Just a 300% to 400% overrun. Don't be shocked when yet another entrance fee hike is thrust upon the public.

Imagine what only a couple thousand dollars of that money could have done to substantially increase the number (or size) of those damned bear boxes you are required to use. But NOoooo, it was better to build an attraction to entertain folks who won't be hanging around very long as they zip through, rather than enabling visitors who want an in-depth experience to actually have a chance to use the park.

A few more of those dollars could also have been used to increase the number of primitive roadside campsites so that more folks could be accommodated in a huge landscape containing a paucity of places to camp.

A person might get the idea that the NPS makes it hard to use the backcountry because they don't really want you out there.
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Jimbow on February 26, 2017, 06:36:45 AM
Yet those passport stamping, museum visiting, tourists have the same claim to their natural parks. I've run and gunned through many a natural park. I know I'm hitting highlights. But I'm curious and enjoy learning. I'm going to Acadia for two weeks,  but will be visiting parks along the way. Some for hours,  some for a day. I'm not certain why that should be viewed as a bad thing.

As noted this park was made of working ranches and mines,  it wasn't wilderness. It's only a small reach to say you could have drawn a circle anywhere in west Texas and had the same man made stuff to preserve.

Clearly based on the past two years more camping opportunities need to be created. Road sites, well spaced. Another developed campground, probably located to the north. With so many people renting hotels in Study Butte maybe even adding rooms.

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Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: iCe on February 26, 2017, 09:17:12 AM

Yet those passport stamping, museum visiting, tourists have the same claim to their natural parks. I've run and gunned through many a natural park. I know I'm hitting highlights. But I'm curious and enjoy learning. I'm going to Acadia for two weeks,  but will be visiting parks along the way. Some for hours,  some for a day. I'm not certain why that should be viewed as a bad thing.

Acadia is on my list. I stayed, a good bit south of Acadia, in Friendship, ME for two weeks a few years ago. One week of printing class and one week of rambling. I drove there from Weimar, TX. It took 3 days to get there and 2.5 to get home. Once I got off of the interstate in Maine I noticeably relaxed. Maine has a feel about it that is hard to describe. I stayed at a little place called Maine Old Comfortable, and it was.


Quote
As noted this park was made of working ranches and mines,  it wasn't wilderness. It's only a small reach to say you could have drawn a circle anywhere in west Texas and had the same man made stuff to preserve.

But the rest of West TX isn't a National Park. That "man made stuff" was no less important than Ruggles cannon (http://npplan.com/parks-by-state/tennessee/shiloh-national-military-park-park-at-a-glance/shiloh-national-military-park-battlefield-tours/shiloh-national-military-park-shiloh-battlefield-tour-cd-version/shiloh-national-military-park-cd-tour-stop-11-ruggles-battery/) or the peach orchard at Shiloh Battlefield (replanted a few years ago). If the park service were to follow your line of thought then every building, including theirs, should have been leveled long ago. The buildings are in ruin because the park service either caused their destruction directly or indirectly by not working to preserve some of the history of the park. When you get to Acadia you'll see buildings that are historic and preserved. Same thing with the Grand Canyon.

Quote
Clearly based on the past two years more camping opportunities need to be created. Road sites, well spaced. Another developed campground, probably located to the north. With so many people renting hotels in Study Butte maybe even adding rooms.

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This goes against your paragraph #2. In that you appear to say... good riddance to those old structures and then later lets build some new crap to get more tourists to come. Clearly all that traffic has resulted in negative things like the restriction of access to Cattail Falls and other "regulatory" action like ions and tigers and bears that never hurt anyone, oh my. I'll tell you what else all that traffic has resulted in- trash... people that "swing by for a visit" have no sense of ownership. They "crap" all over the places that we all respect and love. I drove out to Dodson Trailhead last year just to see what it looked like. I looked in the bear box. Wanna know what was in there? Empty gallon water jugs. Enough to clog the box up. Some had a name on them. Some just a date. Mixed in with that were Ziploc bags of used TP and other camp waste. Pack it in / Pack it out does not mean clog up a bear box with your shit. It means take your shit with you. Friggen pigs...
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Jimbow on February 26, 2017, 09:50:25 AM
I really dislike this format. Face to face we would agree. I didn't mean to suggest these things are not worth preserving. They should be preserved somewhere. Is Costolon preserved or repurposed? Does it make sense to preserve these man made things then not promote them and encourage visitors?

I do not think visitors swinging by to view displays and curio shops are responsible for used tp and empty water jugs in the bear boxes. Those people want soap and sanitizer. Optimistically the pigs are backcountry visitors on their journey to better ethics. Hopefully somewhere, and sometime soon, they develop better habits. Sadly I'm not that optimistic and will ruefully raise a glass to your fricking pigs comment.

The last of these thoughts,  the best chance of the mines and ranches to be preserved was for their economic usefulness to have survived. They sold their souls to the NPS.



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Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Jimbow on February 26, 2017, 09:55:10 AM
This is our second trip to Maine. My first was when I had just spent three months living on South Padre. The rugged beaches and cold Atlantic waters really hit a spot. I guess I just don't like refined.

I'm studying the maps and looking to fit a couple backcountry nights in while my wife has our oldest and grandson to hang with.

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Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: marufo on February 26, 2017, 09:59:46 AM
Quote
It's all about entertaining educating tourists (the dinosaur exhibit) which is the true core mission of the NPS.

FTFY

Quote
The exhibit was projected to cost $350,000 to $400,000 in a 2013 article. The actual cost was reported to be $1.4 million in a January 2017 article. Just a 300% to 400% overrun. Don't be shocked when yet another entrance fee hike is thrust upon the public.

The Big Bend Conservancy has raised over $1.5 million for this exhibit renovation, including $300,000 from the National Park Service Centennial Cost Share Challenge. Major donors to the exhibit include the M.S. Doss Foundation, the Rhodes Charitable Fund, the Brown Foundation Inc., the Meta Alice Keith Bratten Foundation, the Amon Carter Foundation, the Abell-Hanger Foundation, the Permian Basin Foundation, and holders of the Big Bend license plate.

That too.

Check this out: http://fossildiscoveryexhibit.com/
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Jimbow on February 26, 2017, 10:24:35 AM
I guess fund raising for a gravel road and bear box is harder.



The views expressed may not be mine in five minutes.

Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: iCe on February 26, 2017, 11:38:35 AM

I really dislike this format. Face to face we would agree.


 :icon_lol: I know... it's just a conversation. It's hard to converse with a keyboard


No doubt... promoting is the Catch-22... besides that... it's too late now... there's no way to put it back




I didn't mean to suggest these things are not worth preserving. They should be preserved somewhere. Is Costolon preserved or repurposed? Does it make sense to preserve these man made things then not promote them and encourage visitors?

I do not think visitors swinging by to view displays and curio shops are responsible for used tp and empty water jugs in the bear boxes. Those people want soap and sanitizer. Optimistically the pigs are backcountry visitors on their journey to better ethics. Hopefully somewhere, and sometime soon, they develop better habits. Sadly I'm not that optimistic and will ruefully raise a glass to your fricking pigs comment.

The last of these thoughts,  the best chance of the mines and ranches to be preserved was for their economic usefulness to have survived. They sold their souls to the NPS.



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Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: iCe on February 26, 2017, 11:47:19 AM
This is our second trip to Maine. My first was when I had just spent three months living on South Padre. The rugged beaches and cold Atlantic waters really hit a spot. I guess I just don't like refined.

I'm studying the maps and looking to fit a couple backcountry nights in while my wife has our oldest and grandson to hang with.

Sent from my SM-G925T using Big Bend Chat mobile app


i need to do one of those second trip to Maine things. I love that place. When I was there, every day I would plan a trip to Acadia and then see something on the map that was closer so off I would go. No disappointments ever. I thought it was funny that none of the locals thought very much of lobster rolls. They said it screwed up a perfectly good lobster  :icon_smile: All around Friendship there are little mom and pop stores with tin roofs and wooden floors and a deli at the back. The tides would move 10-15 feet  :eusa_shifty: My first day there I walked down to the water and the tide was in, the boats and lobster pot floats were dancing around. The next time I walked down it was low tide and the water was waaaaay out there. Boats were laying on their side in some places. The lobster pots were still in the water  :icon_smile:


Stuff like this will grab my attention and hold it for a while...


Pemaquid Point Light


(http://wildlightimagingstudio.com/img/s/v-2/p92775076-4.jpg)


Marshall Point Light (I got a little heavy handed with the post processing of this one)


(http://wildlightimagingstudio.com/img/s/v-2/p74638328-4.jpg)
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: badknees on February 26, 2017, 11:53:49 AM
IMO, the $1.5M exhibit is shameful. I guess it looks better in a photo-op than some more practical and cost efficient projects.
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: House Made of Dawn on February 26, 2017, 01:07:36 PM
Someday I want to have a beer with Jimbow and iCe. I don't necessarily want to participate in the conversation, I just want to sit back and enjoy the civilized virtuosity of it.

As far as NPS sausage goes, I suspect Marufo has come closest to describing the messy process of how it's actually made:


Quote
Considering that the NPS early-on destroyed many of the historic ranch buildings in the park (and likely some mining ones), their preservation record is sketchy at best. The agency removed those things that did not fit their definition of worth, or their image of what should be preserved.

Would they do it differently today? Maybe, maybe not.

I'm sure they would. The National Park idea is only 100 years old and there has definitely been a learning curve. Fifty years ago it was not realized that suppressing all fires would only lead to more destructive ones. Fifty years ago the NPS was still pushing flaming logs off the waterfalls in Yosemite for the spectacle and putting up bleachers in Yellowstone so visitors could watch the bears raid the garbage cans. But what I think people who are inclined to think of the NPS as "them" don't adequately realize is the degree to which NPS policies have always reflected what the public wanted from their National Parks at the time.

If you're not familiar with this, it is a great introduction to how NPS management has tried to meet the varied and changing expectations of what Big Bend National Park "should be." You're welcome to disagree with some NPS decisions (I certainly do) but if you think those decisions are capricious or not taken seriously, you should read this: https://www.nps.gov/bibe/learn/historyculture/adhi.htm

Quotes from that administrative history re the destruction of historical structures:

Quote
Superintendents and their staffs from Ross Maxwell
in the 1940s to Jose Cisneros in the 1990s had to reconcile visitor expectations, park needs,
budget constraints, changes in scientific research, and NPS policy directives that shifted from the
promotion of scenery to the championing of ecology to the rehabilitation of cultural landscapes.

Quote
Recreation, especially for a war-weary nation just embarking upon
the “baby boom” of the 1950s and early 1960s, dictated strategies for recreation rather than
science, and the removal of “eyesores” and “hazards” from parks like Big Bend.

Quote
Curtis Schaafsma remembered in particular
the time that the famed nature photographer Ansel Adams visited Big Bend (1947), with Harold
Schaafsma serving as his personal guide. “Harold shared that late 1940s romantic vision of
protecting pristine nature,” said his son five decades later; a perspective that Adams promoted in
books, calendars, and brochures about the wonders of the national parks.
In order to fulfill this vision, the park service and superintendent Maxwell could not
devote much attention to scientific research. Instead, they would remove old structures from the
landscape that marred the beauty and/or starkness that evoked such a vision of serenity and
escape. In 1951, architect Kenneth Saunders advised NPS director Conrad Wirth that the park
service could not afford the cost of rehabilitation of the many facilities at parks like Big Bend that
the NPS had inherited. Reductions in the budget for park maintenance during the Korean conflict
further convinced Saunders of the merits of this policy. Thus Maxwell set out to remove such
historic sites as Glenn Springs, and the famed bathhouses at Hot Springs. The park’s roads and
trails crew, recalled longtime maintenance worker Francisco Grano, would be sent out to remove
these buildings. “Waddy Burnham’s house [at Government Spring] was very nice,” said Grano,
“but it was torn down.” Local ranchers like Hallie Stillwell long remembered with bitterness this
destruction of their memories. Yet Reece Sholley McNatt, widow of chief ranger George
Sholley, would recall in 1996 that “the Hot Springs bath house had terrible sanitation.” Its
proprietor, Maggie Smith, “didn’t have a permit,” said McNatt, “and didn’t keep the tubs clean.”
Thus “the old buildings had to be destroyed, and Maggie was crosswise with the NPS over this
and other issues.”
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Jimbow on February 26, 2017, 06:58:00 PM
iCe I was lol at the lobster roll comment. I knew it was something they perpetrated on tourists,  but I must have had five.

My favorite lobster dinner was buying one at a gas station near the park. Foil lined cardboard box with a 4 pound lobster,  potatoes,  etc for like $15. We sat at an old picnic table with butter dripping down our chins.

We also took a sail on a small ketch who ran a lobster line. Old school. 

And of course I needed to stop in Kennebunkport. Seeing casual pictures of George Bush having coffee or whatever in a local restaurant was cool.



The views expressed may not be mine in five minutes.

Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Jimbow on February 26, 2017, 06:59:26 PM
IMO, the $1.5M exhibit is shameful. I guess it looks better in a photo-op than some more practical and cost efficient projects.
No one donates to practical and cost effective projects. Sad. But working for the Boy Scouts taught me about monuments and sizzle.

The views expressed may not be mine in five minutes.

Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Jimbow on February 26, 2017, 07:01:13 PM
Someday I want to have a beer with Jimbow and iCe. I don't necessarily want to participate in the conversation, I just want to sit back and enjoy the civilized virtuosity of it.

As far as NPS sausage goes, I suspect Marufo has come closest to describing the messy process of how it's actually made:


Quote
Considering that the NPS early-on destroyed many of the historic ranch buildings in the park (and likely some mining ones), their preservation record is sketchy at best. The agency removed those things that did not fit their definition of worth, or their image of what should be preserved.

Would they do it differently today? Maybe, maybe not.

I'm sure they would. The National Park idea is only 100 years old and there has definitely been a learning curve. Fifty years ago it was not realized that suppressing all fires would only lead to more destructive ones. Fifty years ago the NPS was still pushing flaming logs off the waterfalls in Yosemite for the spectacle and putting up bleachers in Yellowstone so visitors could watch the bears raid the garbage cans. But what I think people who are inclined to think of the NPS as "them" don't adequately realize is the degree to which NPS policies have always reflected what the public wanted from their National Parks at the time.

If you're not familiar with this, it is a great introduction to how NPS management has tried to meet the varied and changing expectations of what Big Bend National Park "should be." You're welcome to disagree with some NPS decisions (I certainly do) but if you think those decisions are capricious or not taken seriously, you should read this: https://www.nps.gov/bibe/learn/historyculture/adhi.htm (https://www.nps.gov/bibe/learn/historyculture/adhi.htm)

Quotes from that administrative history re the destruction of historical structures:

Quote
Superintendents and their staffs from Ross Maxwell
in the 1940s to Jose Cisneros in the 1990s had to reconcile visitor expectations, park needs,
budget constraints, changes in scientific research, and NPS policy directives that shifted from the
promotion of scenery to the championing of ecology to the rehabilitation of cultural landscapes.

Quote
Recreation, especially for a war-weary nation just embarking upon
the “baby boom” of the 1950s and early 1960s, dictated strategies for recreation rather than
science, and the removal of “eyesores” and “hazards” from parks like Big Bend.

Quote
Curtis Schaafsma remembered in particular
the time that the famed nature photographer Ansel Adams visited Big Bend (1947), with Harold
Schaafsma serving as his personal guide. “Harold shared that late 1940s romantic vision of
protecting pristine nature,” said his son five decades later; a perspective that Adams promoted in
books, calendars, and brochures about the wonders of the national parks.
In order to fulfill this vision, the park service and superintendent Maxwell could not
devote much attention to scientific research. Instead, they would remove old structures from the
landscape that marred the beauty and/or starkness that evoked such a vision of serenity and
escape. In 1951, architect Kenneth Saunders advised NPS director Conrad Wirth that the park
service could not afford the cost of rehabilitation of the many facilities at parks like Big Bend that
the NPS had inherited. Reductions in the budget for park maintenance during the Korean conflict
further convinced Saunders of the merits of this policy. Thus Maxwell set out to remove such
historic sites as Glenn Springs, and the famed bathhouses at Hot Springs. The park’s roads and
trails crew, recalled longtime maintenance worker Francisco Grano, would be sent out to remove
these buildings. “Waddy Burnham’s house [at Government Spring] was very nice,” said Grano,
“but it was torn down.” Local ranchers like Hallie Stillwell long remembered with bitterness this
destruction of their memories. Yet Reece Sholley McNatt, widow of chief ranger George
Sholley, would recall in 1996 that “the Hot Springs bath house had terrible sanitation.” Its
proprietor, Maggie Smith, “didn’t have a permit,” said McNatt, “and didn’t keep the tubs clean.”
Thus “the old buildings had to be destroyed, and Maggie was crosswise with the NPS over this
and other issues.”
I'll travel anywhere in Texas and buy the beer.

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Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: House Made of Dawn on February 26, 2017, 07:40:37 PM
I see a stein in our future.
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Jimbow on February 26, 2017, 08:21:24 PM
Or two.

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Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: iCe on February 26, 2017, 08:49:50 PM
Sounds like the makings of a plan.
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: House Made of Dawn on February 26, 2017, 09:16:22 PM
Surely we'll all be in the Bend at the same time some time.  Stay alert.   :great:
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: dprather on February 26, 2017, 09:55:23 PM
Hey - I've been to Maine too!!!!
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Jimbow on February 27, 2017, 03:27:17 AM
I'm in San Antonio and always willing to drive for a cold beer and great conversation with people who know more than I do about something I'm keenly interested in.

The views expressed may not be mine in five minutes.

Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Andreas on February 27, 2017, 06:02:17 AM
from the facebook site of Brewster County Sheriff's Office
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: iCe on February 27, 2017, 08:08:28 AM
from the facebook site of Brewster County Sheriff's Office


I wish that I knew who did it. I would turn them in, collect the reward, and donate it to the dinosaur exhibit  :eusa_eh: :eusa_shifty: :dance:
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: iCe on February 27, 2017, 08:13:41 AM
I'm in San Antonio and always willing to drive for a cold beer and great conversation with people who know more than I do about something I'm keenly interested in.

The views expressed may not be mine in five minutes.


I'm east of you about an hour maybe a tad more. My son lives on the east side of SAT. If we are talking BiBe I would have to sit there and listen intently. Every time I start to think I know something about BiBe someone comes along and walks across the park or ropes down to Cattail Falls from the Basin or frolics across the Mesa de Anguila etc


We can talk about cabins... I've stayed in some of them  :eusa_eh: :icon_lol:
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: House Made of Dawn on February 27, 2017, 11:01:13 AM
I'm in San Antonio and always willing to drive for a cold beer and great conversation with people who know more than I do about something I'm keenly interested in.

The views expressed may not be mine in five minutes.


I'm east of you about an hour maybe a tad more. My son lives on the east side of SAT. If we are talking BiBe I would have to sit there and listen intently. Every time I start to think I know something about BiBe someone comes along and walks across the park or ropes down to Cattail Falls from the Basin or frolics across the Mesa de Anguila etc


We can talk about cabins... I've stayed in some of them  :eusa_eh: :icon_lol:

 :icon_lol: None of us understands the whole of The Bend. We're like blind men, each clutching our own little part of the elephant and describing what we've found. All educational, and pretty much all true, even when it's contradictory. That's one of the reasons I love BBC. You can hang with it for years and still learn something new every day.  I'll give you guys a heads-up next time I'm passing through San Antonio.
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: Jimbow on February 27, 2017, 11:03:04 AM
I remember checking off most of the named hikes,  backpacking through the Chisos and thinking I had done most of the park. Then I found this place.

At one time I looked at faraway corners and wondered what was there.  Now I look off on the distance at faraway corners and wonder who is there.

I just wish I was a couple hours closer.

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Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: House Made of Dawn on February 27, 2017, 11:07:18 AM
I remember checking off most of the named hikes,  backpacking through the Chisos and thinking I had done most of the park. Then I found this place.

At one time I looked at faraway corners and wondered what was there.  Now I look off on the distance at faraway corners and wonder who is there.

I just wish I was a couple hours closer.


Ditto on everything.
Title: Re: Terlingua vandalism
Post by: iCe on February 27, 2017, 11:42:23 AM
Ditto the ditto.


It's an amazing place