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Big Bend Community => What's Happening => Topic started by: dprather on November 19, 2017, 01:15:26 PM

Title: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: dprather on November 19, 2017, 01:15:26 PM
News is breaking about a sure-enough shootout that killed a Border patrol agent and badly wounded another in the Big Bend area.  Is this the eventuality that we all feared, the one about border violence finally reaching our desiccated Shangri-La, or is this another kind of shootout?

Frankly, I trust my BBC buddies who live out there far more than I trust the media.  I would appreciate hearing from you guys about this. 
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: Jalco on November 19, 2017, 01:29:26 PM
This is all I could find
http://www.newswest9.com/story/36881107/us-border-patrol-agent-dies-while-on-patrol-in-big-bend-sector

Seems to be a good ways away from BiBe.

Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: elhombre on November 19, 2017, 06:23:57 PM
Here is another http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017/11/19/border-patrol-agent-killed-another-serious-condition-texas/

This came up this week also.  It is a story about how our politicians still can't seem to get a grasp on how to control the border.  The Border Patrol Union is once again outing the govment for not taking care of business.  If this story is true, with the cooler weather of winter, we should have a bunch more illegals crossing the border, and released to live in a house near you.........or at least me

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017/11/16/dhs-renewing-catch-release-texas-says-border-patrol-council/
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: mule ears on November 19, 2017, 08:24:32 PM
So far it looks like there is no information as to what happened.  All the way up on I-10.  Could be any number of things or people and not necessarily even border crossers.  Once again, I disregard anything from Breitbart "news".    :eusa_hand:

Sorry for the agents family.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: Shocky1352 on November 19, 2017, 08:29:18 PM
No mention of gunplay in the articles. And Van Horn is over 200 miles away from Big Bend by car.

Do any of you know something more than what's in the article?
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: RichardM on November 19, 2017, 09:52:13 PM
Guess we'll have to wait until tomorrow.
Quote from: http://www.chron.com/news/local/texas/article/U-S-Border-Patrol-agent-dies-from-injuries-12369731.php?ipid=hpctp
Jeanette Harper, with the FBI's El Paso office,  said Sunday evening that contrary to reports from other news outlets there was no shooting and that a full account would not be released until Monday.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: House Made of Dawn on November 19, 2017, 10:34:55 PM
I have to add a real world data point: I've been interviewed twice by Breitbart reporters and both were hacks that were clearly interested in producing a pre-determined spin on the stories. They asked leading questions, ignored any of my answers that didn't fit their agenda, and misquoted me in the end. Now, mind you, I've also experienced the exact same thing from other "news reporters" of various ideological stripes. But of all the interviews I've participated in over the years, Breitbart was hands-down the least neutral or professional. I've become extremely suspicious of most news sources, simply because my personal experiences of various events have diverged so shockingly from the news reports of the same. The bottom line on almost any news media is "caveat emptor'.  Most media are simply selling click-bait or entertainment for the lowest-common-denominator. My heart goes out to the deceased and his family, but I think we're a long way from knowing what really happened. I hope the truth of the events, whatever it may be, will become clearer soon, and that a reasonable and just response is made.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: Shocky1352 on November 20, 2017, 04:31:19 AM
News is breaking about a sure-enough shootout that killed a Border patrol agent and badly wounded another in the Big Bend area.  Is this the eventuality that we all feared, the one about border violence finally reaching our desiccated Shangri-La, or is this another kind of shootout?

Frankly, I trust my BBC buddies who live out there far more than I trust the media.  I would appreciate hearing from you guys about this.

So far the only place I've seen mention of "gunfight" or "shootout" is in your post. Care to share your source? Nothing on BBC.com, or Fox News.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: nuggetf5 on November 20, 2017, 07:34:11 AM
Once again, I disregard anything from Breitbart "news".    :eusa_hand:

+1
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: Flash on November 20, 2017, 07:47:27 AM
Radio was saying something about large stones...

(Flash sent this from his HTC 831C.)

Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: elhombre on November 20, 2017, 08:33:06 AM
The National Border Patrol Council is reporting the same thing as Brietbart.  Or visa versa,  http://www.bpunion.org/newsroom/224-in-memory-of/1885-border-patrol-agent-killed-and-another-agent-hospitalized-in-big-bend-sector

The truth can be discovered if you use the internet as a tool for research.  It's a shame many only look at their own perceived "safe and truthful" sources without questioning the info on it.  If a person believes or does not believe a story simply on the basis of where it came from, that person is no longer thinking for themselves, and is being controlled by someone else.  "Hi, I'm from the government, and I'm here to help".

That being said, the only one real truth of this world that I BELIEVE in was not spoken by a man.

 http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017/11/19/exclusive-illegal-aliens-killed-border-agent-crushing-face-skull-rocks-says-nbpc/

Please don't loose sight of the fact that a hero protecting our country was killed this weekend by criminal trespassers.  Please remember his family in your prayers.  Thanksgiving will no longer be same for them.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: austin gorpchomper on November 20, 2017, 09:34:17 AM
We don't know what the facts are in this case yet, other than breitbart has a known history of publishing intentionally inflammatory fake news in situations like this. publishing those links enlightens no one.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: Cookie on November 20, 2017, 10:16:15 AM
Once again, I disregard anything from Breitbart "news".    :eusa_hand:

+1

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/19/us/border-patrol-agent-killed/index.html

http://abcnews.go.com/US/slain-border-patrol-agent-remembered-lifelong-friend-good/story?id=51270598

http://www.cbs7.com/content/news/FBI-takes-over-US-Border-Patrol-agent-death-investigation--458675823.html

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/slain-border-patrol-agent-remembered-lifelong-friend-good-104204455--abc-news-topstories.html

~Cookie
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: Ranger Tim on November 20, 2017, 10:48:15 AM
No word yet down here on the actual border. I had initially heard it was a vehicle accident, which are all too common down here unfortunately.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: dprather on November 20, 2017, 11:12:59 AM
News is breaking about a sure-enough shootout that killed a Border patrol agent and badly wounded another in the Big Bend area.  Is this the eventuality that we all feared, the one about border violence finally reaching our desiccated Shangri-La, or is this another kind of shootout?

Frankly, I trust my BBC buddies who live out there far more than I trust the media.  I would appreciate hearing from you guys about this.

So far the only place I've seen mention of "gunfight" or "shootout" is in your post. Care to share your source? Nothing on BBC.com, or Fox News.

The first reports I read mentioned a shooting, one dead, and one injured.  I certainly did not mean to overstate. 
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: dprather on November 20, 2017, 11:14:03 AM
News is breaking about a sure-enough shootout that killed a Border patrol agent and badly wounded another in the Big Bend area.  Is this the eventuality that we all feared, the one about border violence finally reaching our desiccated Shangri-La, or is this another kind of shootout?

Frankly, I trust my BBC buddies who live out there far more than I trust the media.  I would appreciate hearing from you guys about this.

So far the only place I've seen mention of "gunfight" or "shootout" is in your post. Care to share your source? Nothing on BBC.com, or Fox News.

The first reports I read mentioned a shooting, one dead, and one injured.  I certainly did not mean to overstate.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: possum on November 20, 2017, 06:42:11 PM
From the Associated Press

http://www.newswest9.com/story/36886232/the-latest-officials-say-border-agent-was-killed-in-attack

The Latest: CBP official says attack reports 'speculation'
Monday, November 20th 2017, 9:10 am CST
Monday, November 20th 2017, 6:19 pm CST
By The Associated Press

DALLAS (AP) - The Latest on the death in Texas of a U.S. Customs and Border Protection agent (all times local):

6:15 p.m.

A U.S. border patrol official says unconfirmed reports that an agent who died and another who was injured were attacked are "speculation" as of Monday evening.

U.S. Customs and Border Patrol official Rush Carter says all the agency can confirm is that the two agents were injured and that a joint investigation with the FBI will hopefully determine how that happened.

Carter, a supervisor for the CBP region where 36-year-old Rogelio Martinez died, emphasized that the investigation is ongoing.

Chris Cabrera, a spokesman for a border patrol agents union, said Monday that agents who responded to the scene Sunday described it as "grisly" and said the dead agent and his partner had "extensive injuries" from being struck with a rock or rocks.

4:10 p.m.

A union official says a U.S. border agent who died while on patrol in West Texas appears to have been struck in the head with a rock or rocks.

Chris Cabrera, a spokesman for the National Border Patrol Council, said Monday that U.S. Customs and Border Protection agents who responded to the scene Sunday described it as "grisly" and said the dead agent, 36-year-old Rogelio Martinez, and his partner had "extensive injuries."

A Border Patrol spokesman said Martinez died at a hospital and that his partner, whose name hasn't been released, was seriously injured.

It has been more than 24 hours, yet there hasn't been an official explanation of what happened. Several elected officials have said the agents were attacked, including President Donald Trump, who renewed his call for a border wall between the U.S. and Mexico.

The incident or attack happened near Van Horn, which is about 30 miles (48 kilometers) from the Mexico border and about 110 miles (177 kilometers) southeast of El Paso.

12:45 p.m.

Texas is offering a $20,000 reward for information that leads to the arrest and conviction of the person or people who killed a U.S. border agent and injured another.

Gov. Greg Abbott announced the reward in a statement Monday in which he expressed gratitude to U.S. Customs and Border Protection agents.

Agent Rogelio Martinez was killed and his partner was seriously injured Sunday in what elected officials have said was an attack near Van Horn, which is about 30 miles (48 kilometers) from the Mexico border and about 110 miles (177 kilometers) southeast of El Paso. Martinez's partner, whose name hasn't been released, is hospitalized in serious condition.

Investigators haven't released certain details about the case, including what time it happened and whether they're pursuing specific suspects. An FBI spokeswoman did say the agents were not shot.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: mule ears on November 21, 2017, 07:09:14 AM
So here is what seems to be a balanced and non dramatic report (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/20/us/border-agent-killed-texas.html?emc=edit_th_20171121&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=55651572&_r=0) on the situation.  Still no details other than probably hit with rocks and probably drug trafficking related.

 I wish everyone would wait to make statements until more facts are known, especially officials like the president but that is not the way people act these days.   :banghead:
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: marufo on November 21, 2017, 08:58:27 AM
Quote
Investigators believe a border patrol agent who died in West Texas after suffering extensive injuries to his head and body may have fallen down a 14-foot (4-meter) culvert, and his partner, who radioed for help, has no memory of what happened, according to a U.S. official with knowledge of the investigation.

FBI spokeswoman Jeanette Harper said in a statement Monday that both agents were found late Saturday night in a culvert near Van Horn and that both had traumatic head injuries. Harper said Rogelio Martinez died early Sunday. The FBI is leading the investigation and results of his autopsy are pending.

Another U.S. official, who was briefed on the investigation but is not authorized to speak publicly and spoke on condition of anonymity, said Monday that Martinez was found at the bottom of the culvert and that investigators believe he may have fallen. The official said it happened after dark in an area that's known for drug activity and where agents often look for drugs in culverts.

Authorities haven't offered an official explanation of what happened to Martinez and his partner, and a border patrol supervisor said reports that the agents were attacked are "speculation."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ap-source-authorities-border-agent-fallen-51293061

Here's an interesting timeline of the statements by officials of the National Border Patrol Council from a website that seems to me to lean, if anything, rightward.
Quote
A Border Patrol agent is dead and another hospitalized following something along the Texas border. Agent Rogelio Martinez was killed Sunday near Van Horn, a town of about two thousand, a few hundred miles east of El Paso. What is known … really isn’t much, and the lack of information is disturbing. The FBI and CBP say Martinez and his partner were responding to “activity” but declined to reveal exactly what that means. They’ve not released a timeline of what happened, something a spokesperson told the San Antonio Express-News would happen today. The FBI does say the agents weren’t shot but that’s it. Nothing else.

The National Border Patrol Council is commenting on what they believe happened but their comments are causing a lot of confusion. Get ready for a bouncing ball, folks, because it’s gonna get interesting.

Here’s what a union spokesperson told ABC-7 in El Paso.

    Union Spokesman Chris Cabrera told ABC-7 Martinez was responding to foot traffic that set off sensors when he came across a group of individuals.

    Cabrera said Martinez called for back up, and when his partner arrived, the agent found Martinez was unconscious with severe head trauma. The partner then called for back up, and when more agents arrived, the partner was also found with severe injuries, Cabrera said.

NBPC President Brandon Judd made similar comments to Breitbart Texas and swore it was another example of why the border needed to be secure.

But then the language from the union started to change and muddy the waters a bit. Here’s the statement they put out Sunday.

    As of this writing, the cause of this tragedy is not being reported as this situation is unfolding and an active investigation is underway. Various local and federal authorities are on scene to assist with the investigation and to search the area for any suspects or witnesses.

Judd also started couching his words when he spoke with more traditional outlets. Here’s part of his talk with Fox News.

    We don’t know exactly what happened because we weren’t there. However, just from agents that were working in the area, reports are saying it was an attack and it would appear to be an ambush.

He gets more hesitant in The Washington Post (emphasis mine).

    “I have been told by several agents that it was a grisly scene, and that his injuries were very extensive,” Judd said Monday in a phone interview with The Washington Post. “We believe he was struck in the head with rocks, or multiple rocks.”..

    “I have not heard (the injured agent) has regained memory of what happened,” Judd said. “So there is a possibility they were together when this happened, but we’re getting a lot of different information from different agents.”

It’s completely possible the initial details into Martinez’s death will indicate a rock attack by people who came across the border. But there’s also the chance the story will keep changing and and potentially reveal a new motive and perpetrator. CBP is preparing for that possibility. Via the Associated Press:

    (A) U.S. border patrol official says so-called reports of an attack were “speculation” as of Monday evening, according to a report from the Associated Press.

    U.S. Customs and Border Patrol official Rush Carter says all the agency can confirm is that the two agents were injured and that a joint investigation with the FBI will hopefully determine how that happened.

Remember, sources originally claimed it was the brother of the Newtown shooter who committed that horrific tragedy before having to issue corrections. There’s still confusion on what actually happened in Las Vegas because law enforcement buggered their timelines up, and a motive is even more elusive. People railed about what happened in Sutherland Springs, and the availability of guns, before it turned out the current laws on the books would have worked if the Air Force hadn’t royally fracked up.

So I’m a little hesitant to place blame on illegal or undocumented or whatever the right term is these days depending on your political alignment immigrants. If Martinez died in an attack then whoever did it is a criminal and will hopefully be caught, and soon. But jumping to conclusions on a tragedy won’t help anyone or anything, especially Martinez’s grieving family. Let’s get a clearer picture and go from there.
https://hotair.com/archives/2017/11/20/conflicting-stories-lack-information-tx-border-patrol-agents-murder/

I think it's worth keeping in mind that the NBPC is a public sector union (to which less than one third of border patrol agents belong). Just like unions for teachers or any other public employees, they have a motivation to paint a dire picture and insist they need more money, more employees, and (often) "the ability to do their jobs without all the red tape" - which frequently means less accountability.
Quote
I wish everyone would wait to make statements until more facts are known, especially officials like the president but that is not the way people act these days.   :banghead:
+1
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: presidio on November 21, 2017, 11:57:01 AM
Quote
Investigators believe a border patrol agent who died in West Texas after suffering extensive injuries to his head and body may have fallen down a 14-foot (4-meter) culvert, and his partner, who radioed for help, has no memory of what happened, according to a U.S. official with knowledge of the investigation.
Authorities haven't offered an official explanation of what happened to Martinez and his partner, and a border patrol supervisor said reports that the agents were attacked are "speculation."

Quote
What is known … really isn’t much, and the lack of information is disturbing. The FBI does say the agents weren’t shot but that’s it. Nothing else.

“I have not heard (the injured agent) has regained memory of what happened,” Judd said. “So there is a possibility they were together when this happened, but we’re getting a lot of different information from different agents.”

It’s completely possible the initial details into Martinez’s death will indicate a rock attack by people who came across the border. But there’s also the chance the story will keep changing and and potentially reveal a new motive and perpetrator.

Something is not quite right with this story.

Gut feeling, aided by the JDLR principle: Just Doesn't Look Right.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: austin gorpchomper on November 21, 2017, 01:10:27 PM
It doesn't look right in context of the original unconfirmed reports, but there is, in my imagination, a scenario which does look exactly right in view of the few officially confirmed facts we have (as well as the silence of the FBI in this case). I'll keep it imaginary.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: elhombre on November 21, 2017, 01:29:55 PM
WOAI San Antonio radio says it was a car wreck.   

 :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: 

I laughed and drove home from work with a smile on my face. 

Guess it goes to show you that the only thing you can BELIEVE in is man can't do anything right.  Thank God for his Grace!

How sad it must be for the family of the fallen agent.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: dprather on November 21, 2017, 01:56:47 PM
Remember the old TV show GET SMART and the "dome of silence?"  More and more, the dome of silence is dropping all over "interesting" news stories.

Thoughts for the deceased and the injured, and for their families - whatever the details.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: elhombre on November 21, 2017, 02:01:44 PM
Another data point

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017/11/20/texas-governor-offers-reward-info-murder-border-patrol-agent/
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: presidio on November 21, 2017, 02:37:58 PM
(as well as the silence of the FBI in this case). I'll keep it imaginary.

Indeed, the silence implies something other than what's been "reported" so far.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: Flash on November 21, 2017, 02:47:22 PM
FBI is now adding another 25K to the reward:
http://www.cbs7.com/content/news/Death-of-Border-Patrol-Agent--459122683.html
 :eusa_think:
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: mule ears on November 21, 2017, 06:00:56 PM
Quote
Investigators believe a border patrol agent who died in West Texas after suffering extensive injuries to his head and body may have fallen down a 14-foot (4-meter) culvert, and his partner, who radioed for help, has no memory of what happened, according to a U.S. official with knowledge of the investigation.
Authorities haven't offered an official explanation of what happened to Martinez and his partner, and a border patrol supervisor said reports that the agents were attacked are "speculation."

Quote
What is known … really isn’t much, and the lack of information is disturbing. The FBI does say the agents weren’t shot but that’s it. Nothing else.

“I have not heard (the injured agent) has regained memory of what happened,” Judd said. “So there is a possibility they were together when this happened, but we’re getting a lot of different information from different agents.”

It’s completely possible the initial details into Martinez’s death will indicate a rock attack by people who came across the border. But there’s also the chance the story will keep changing and and potentially reveal a new motive and perpetrator.

Something is not quite right with this story.

Gut feeling, aided by the JDLR principle: Just Doesn't Look Right.

Nuff said.   :eusa_snooty:
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: Shocky1352 on November 21, 2017, 09:04:34 PM
Bogus post title/subject. National Enquirer worthy.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: marufo on November 27, 2017, 07:47:44 AM
FWIW here's the latest local gossip via Facebook (and I emphasize, this is just unverified rumor):
Quote
Brewster County Sheriff Ronnie Dotson this AM in a conversation in the bank in Alpine said the BP incident didn't involve anyone besides the two agents involved.

While playing 'grab ass' as he put it, they fell off a culvert onto rocks below. Agent Martinez's injuries included broken ribs, broken clavicle, and massive trauma to the side of his head. [I assume the other agent had similar injuries consistent with an uncontrolled fall onto the rocks below the culvert]

(I must admit, the "grab ass" sounds just like something Ronnie would say...)
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: presidio on November 27, 2017, 08:07:34 AM
FWIW here's the latest local gossip via Facebook (and I emphasize, this is just unverified rumor):
Quote
Brewster County Sheriff Ronnie Dotson this AM in a conversation in the bank in Alpine said the BP incident didn't involve anyone besides the two agents involved.

While playing 'grab ass' as he put it, they fell off a culvert onto rocks below. Agent Martinez's injuries included broken ribs, broken clavicle, and massive trauma to the side of his head. [I assume the other agent had similar injuries consistent with an uncontrolled fall onto the rocks below the culvert]

(I must admit, the "grab ass" sounds just like something Ronnie would say...)

It's still JDLR.

I suspect it's more than grab ass. My initial thought when it first was reported: interpersonal conflict. You don't respond to a purported sensor trip and engage in frivolous behavior while doing so. The continued official silence says there's a lot more to the story than is willing to be admitted.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: Homer Wilson on November 27, 2017, 09:16:43 AM
FWIW here's the latest local gossip via Facebook (and I emphasize, this is just unverified rumor):
Quote
Brewster County Sheriff Ronnie Dotson this AM in a conversation in the bank in Alpine said the BP incident didn't involve anyone besides the two agents involved.

While playing 'grab ass' as he put it, they fell off a culvert onto rocks below. Agent Martinez's injuries included broken ribs, broken clavicle, and massive trauma to the side of his head. [I assume the other agent had similar injuries consistent with an uncontrolled fall onto the rocks below the culvert]

(I must admit, the "grab ass" sounds just like something Ronnie would say...)

It's still JDLR.

I suspect it's more than grab ass. My initial thought when it first was reported: interpersonal conflict. You don't respond to a purported sensor trip and engage in frivolous behavior while doing so. The continued official silence says there's a lot more to the story than is willing to be admitted.
Yeah, it is odd for the sheriff to make a statement like that when there has been complete silence from the FBI investigation.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: Txlj on November 27, 2017, 01:22:03 PM
Also, it didn't happen in his county.

Sent from flat land

Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: dprather on November 27, 2017, 01:35:25 PM
From gunfight (original media reports), to rock-wielding and head-bashing illegals (subsequent report), and all the way to "grab ass" (insider info) is a looooong ways.

The official silence remains deafening.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: Slimkitty on November 27, 2017, 06:17:37 PM
Coach always warned us about playing “grab ass”.


Sent from the future.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: Flash on November 28, 2017, 08:33:05 AM
From gunfight (original media reports), to rock-wielding and head-bashing illegals (subsequent report), and all the way to "grab ass" (insider info) is a looooong ways.

The official silence remains deafening.
Perhaps they were pushed, pulled, or tripped? :eusa_think:
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: presidio on November 28, 2017, 11:42:41 AM
From gunfight (original media reports), to rock-wielding and head-bashing illegals (subsequent report), and all the way to "grab ass" (insider info) is a looooong ways.

The official silence remains deafening.
Perhaps they were pushed, pulled, or tripped? :eusa_think:

I predict we will learn it was more than an accident or horsing around, and that it did not involve illegals. To be more specific, there is an undercurrent of workplace violence, or green on green, running through the tightly controlled release of information.

I would prefer to be wrong, but not much else makes sense at this point. No organization is immune from interpersonal conflict that can escalate to violence.

There seems to be no evidence of third parties involved and it beggars belief that both simply tripped, fell and sustained similar injuries, in an area I would expect them to have intimate familiarity as part of their patrol sector. Thus, it smacks of a fight in a convenient location. Firearms and other defensive equipment could not be used as that would be obvious as to perpetrator. However, conversely, I also would expect a victim to respond to any attack with equipment at hand, unless the victim quickly was incapacitated. A very curious situation. It would be very interesting to see a comparison of injury severity between the two. Specifically, is the surviving agent less harmed than the deceased?

Rocks make the perfect foil as BP folks are known to sustain rock throwing attacks; just look at the shielding on their vehicles that operate directly on the border in urban areas. See an example here http://www.usborderpatrol.com/WarWagon.jpg

While the scene surely was trampled by responders, I would expect the fabled trackers of the BP to have scoured the area beyond for evidence of foot traffic to establish whether or not anyone else recently was on site.

The surviving agent says he "doesn’t recall what happened and says the last thing he remembers is arriving at work that night." Amnesia that could be real, or not.

About halfway down this page http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/27/us/border-patrol-agent-death-investigation/index.html is a photo of a culvert. If it is the actual location, it appears to be on I-10 or a connecting main road; and not in some isolated area. While the view is limited there is nothing shown that would explain the purported injuries being sustained in a fall.

The JDLR continues unabated.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: BlindWilly on December 01, 2017, 09:23:46 AM
Here's the latest I've heard about the incident:
https://news.vice.com/story/sheriff-says-illegal-aliens-who-killed-a-border-patrol-agent-were-actually-just-a-truck?utm_source=vicenewsfb

Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: presidio on December 01, 2017, 12:41:18 PM
Here's the latest I've heard about the incident:
https://news.vice.com/story/sheriff-says-illegal-aliens-who-killed-a-border-patrol-agent-were-actually-just-a-truck?utm_source=vicenewsfb

JDLR

So much speculation, so few facts released.

The prior descriptions of injuries likely are not consistent with being struck by a vehicle.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: mule ears on December 01, 2017, 03:28:08 PM
Unless the way they fell 14' into a culvert was they got knocked in there by a passing vehicle.   :eusa_think:

Still a long way from the original story.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: dprather on December 01, 2017, 03:52:54 PM
Hold it...isn't far West Texas very near to Roswell?

At this point, it is just as likely that aliens dun it as we are to get a full and complete accounting.  This is probably the only forum that is still tracking the story.

I was (and remain) concerned that, someday, there will be a sizable and violent incident involving border-crossing illegals in the Bend area that will shatter a lot of our calm.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: mule ears on December 01, 2017, 04:14:44 PM
Hold it...isn't far West Texas very near to Roswell?

At this point, it is just as likely that aliens dun it as we are to get a full and complete accounting.  This is probably the only forum that is still tracking the story.

I was (and remain) concerned that, someday, there will be a sizable and violent incident involving border-crossing illegals in the Bend area that will shatter a lot of our calm.
Has it happened anywhere else along the border?  If it does happen I hope it's not BP violence on the crossers

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Big Bend Chat mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=88143)

Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: marufo on December 01, 2017, 06:50:16 PM
Quote
    I was (and remain) concerned that, someday, there will be a sizable and violent incident involving border-crossing illegals in the Bend area that will shatter a lot of our calm.

Has it happened anywhere else along the border?  If it does happen I hope it's not BP violence on the crossers
Quote
Sixteen-year old Jose Antonio Elena Rodriguez was walking near the U.S.-Mexico border in Nogales, Sonora, Mexico to meet his brother for a late-night snack when he was fatally shot by U.S. Border Patrol agents. An autopsy later showed the body of the teenager had been riddled with 10 bullets that had entered his back and head. Mexican officials also said it seemed there were two agents who shot at least 14 times. More than a year later, the U.S. government has yet to issue a public explanation of what happened, or to release stationary video footage, except to allege that he was part of a group throwing rocks at Border Patrol agents who were up on a hill, behind the 60-foot tall border fence

...A chief concern presented to the U.N. Human Rights Committee has been the rash of lethal use-of-force incidents at the border, including the death of Elena Rodriguez. Since January 2010, at least 28 civilians have died following an encounter with U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP)personnel; 27 = died as the result of use of force. These deaths include numerous cases of individuals being shot in the back, across international borders, and in response to alleged rock throwing. One-third of the deaths are of U.S. citizens and one-third of minors, including three boys aged 15, 16 and 17, who were fatally shot while standing on the Mexican side of the border.

CBP’s fundamental lack of oversight, accountability and transparency has created a culture of impunity for agents who violate agency policy or their domestic and international legal obligations. In addition, Border Patrol rejected some core changes to its use-of-force policies recommended by national law-enforcement experts at the Police Executive Research Forum (PERF), including how to respond to rock and vehicular assaults, and has refused to release those recommendations publicly.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/human-rights/why-us-border-patrol-shooting-rock-throwing-teenagers
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: mule ears on December 01, 2017, 07:01:02 PM
Quote
    I was (and remain) concerned that, someday, there will be a sizable and violent incident involving border-crossing illegals in the Bend area that will shatter a lot of our calm.

Has it happened anywhere else along the border?  If it does happen I hope it's not BP violence on the crossers
Quote
Sixteen-year old Jose Antonio Elena Rodriguez was walking near the U.S.-Mexico border in Nogales, Sonora, Mexico to meet his brother for a late-night snack when he was fatally shot by U.S. Border Patrol agents. An autopsy later showed the body of the teenager had been riddled with 10 bullets that had entered his back and head. Mexican officials also said it seemed there were two agents who shot at least 14 times. More than a year later, the U.S. government has yet to issue a public explanation of what happened, or to release stationary video footage, except to allege that he was part of a group throwing rocks at Border Patrol agents who were up on a hill, behind the 60-foot tall border fence

...A chief concern presented to the U.N. Human Rights Committee has been the rash of lethal use-of-force incidents at the border, including the death of Elena Rodriguez. Since January 2010, at least 28 civilians have died following an encounter with U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP)personnel; 27 = died as the result of use of force. These deaths include numerous cases of individuals being shot in the back, across international borders, and in response to alleged rock throwing. One-third of the deaths are of U.S. citizens and one-third of minors, including three boys aged 15, 16 and 17, who were fatally shot while standing on the Mexican side of the border.

CBP’s fundamental lack of oversight, accountability and transparency has created a culture of impunity for agents who violate agency policy or their domestic and international legal obligations. In addition, Border Patrol rejected some core changes to its use-of-force policies recommended by national law-enforcement experts at the Police Executive Research Forum (PERF), including how to respond to rock and vehicular assaults, and has refused to release those recommendations publicly.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/human-rights/why-us-border-patrol-shooting-rock-throwing-teenagers (https://www.aclu.org/blog/human-rights/why-us-border-patrol-shooting-rock-throwing-teenagers)
That's what I'm talking about

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Big Bend Chat mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=88143)

Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: elhombre on December 02, 2017, 08:28:50 AM
Yes, the border is a dangerous place.

http://www.fox4news.com/news/14-year-old-colleyville-heritage-student-killed-in-crash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0jfqnBuuBk

Funny the VIDEO news report doesn't mention the drunk killer was an illegal.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: presidio on December 02, 2017, 10:17:45 AM
Yes, the border is a dangerous place.

http://www.fox4news.com/news/14-year-old-colleyville-heritage-student-killed-in-crash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0jfqnBuuBk

Funny the VIDEO news report doesn't mention the drunk killer was an illegal.

The video at the link above (not the video posted here) specifically says the driver was an illegal. The text at that same link also makes that clear: "The U.S. Department of Immigration and Customs Enforcement also has an immigration hold on Chaparro-Saenz, so he has no bond."

Since the second video is from a different station, I guess you'd have to ask the first station why they omitted a fact.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: marufo on December 06, 2017, 10:58:29 PM
I'll be the first to admit that I was skeptical about the "attack" story, so I want to also admit that it looks like that might have been what happened after all.
Quote
EL PASO, Texas (KTSM) - Federal search warrants unsealed over the weekend indicate that the FBI is zeroing in on two suspects in the beating death of Border Patrol agent Rogelio Martinez and the assault of a second agent near Van Horn in late November.

According to the warrants, an informant came to federal agents with information that two brothers may be involved. KTSM is not identifying those brothers because they have not been charged. For identifying purposes, we are identifying them as Suspect 1 and Suspect 2.

The informant said a "coyote" who had recently smuggled illegal immigrants across the border advised that some of the immigrants within the group had spoken of assaulting the agents.

A second person, reportedly familiar with the brothers, identified the two men in the group by name to the informant. That person said the brothers assaulted the agents with rocks during the attack.

http://www.elpasoproud.com/news/local/el-paso-news/fbi-zeros-in-on-suspects-in-border-patrol-agent-death/876246479
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: presidio on December 07, 2017, 12:25:11 AM
I'll be the first to admit that I was skeptical about the "attack" story, so I want to also admit that it looks like that might have been what happened after all.
Quote
EL PASO, Texas (KTSM) - Federal search warrants unsealed over the weekend indicate that the FBI is zeroing in on two suspects in the beating death of Border Patrol agent Rogelio Martinez and the assault of a second agent near Van Horn in late November.

According to the warrants, an informant came to federal agents with information that two brothers may be involved. KTSM is not identifying those brothers because they have not been charged. For identifying purposes, we are identifying them as Suspect 1 and Suspect 2.

The informant said a "coyote" who had recently smuggled illegal immigrants across the border advised that some of the immigrants within the group had spoken of assaulting the agents.

A second person, reportedly familiar with the brothers, identified the two men in the group by name to the informant. That person said the brothers assaulted the agents with rocks during the attack.

http://www.elpasoproud.com/news/local/el-paso-news/fbi-zeros-in-on-suspects-in-border-patrol-agent-death/876246479

Could be; we'll have to wait and see what comes out of this. Keep in mind there's reward money to be had here (though it will require verifiable information to be paid).

I would find it very interesting to read a transcript of radio calls to/from the two agents in the minutes before loss of contact. Typically, contacts with suspects are called in to dispatch. These guys don't operate in a vacuum so there must be some radio chatter about where they were and what they were doing.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: austin gorpchomper on December 07, 2017, 12:43:15 PM
Yeah, I still harbor a degree of skepticism...
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: marufo on December 09, 2017, 08:54:02 AM
Good article from the San Antonio Express-News that provides a big-picture look at the Big Bend Sector and how it has historically differed from other parts of the border.
Quote
For agents working in the wide-open, lightly-populated Big Bend region, which includes more than 500 miles of Mexican border but is not known for violence, Martinez’s mysterious death was a gut shock.

“Whatever it is, it’s a bad deal, but what is it?” asked Supervisory Agent Shane Jahn, 43, last week in Marfa.

In Marfa, Border Patrol Special Operations Supervisor Rush Carter said if evidence confirms the two agents were attacked, the working dynamic between agents in the Big Bend and the people they track and apprehend daily will change radically.

Typically, he said, those caught sneaking through the brush either surrender or run, but are not aggressive toward agents.

“We have not had the level of violence, assaults or confrontations we’ve seen in Arizona or South Texas. We have encountered criminal aliens, backpackers, who resisted, but no agent has been assaulted and injured, much less killed,” he added.

“If it was an assault, the gentleman’s agreement has been broken,” he said. “We will have to rethink a lot of things. We, as agents in the sector, are all waiting to hear the conclusion of the investigation.”

http://www.expressnews.com/news/local/article/On-watch-for-smugglers-drug-runners-in-the-vast-12416884.php#photo-14674118
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: elhombre on December 09, 2017, 10:58:42 AM
“If it was an assault, the gentleman’s agreement has been broken,”

WTF?
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: Txlj on December 09, 2017, 11:54:03 AM
elhombre, agreed.

Sent from flat land

Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: dprather on December 09, 2017, 12:42:18 PM
 "backpackers, who resisted"...hummmmmmmmmmmm
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: presidio on December 09, 2017, 05:17:57 PM
“If it was an assault, the gentleman’s agreement has been broken,”

WTF?

Reference to unwritten rules and codes of conduct that go way back. File it under "understandings."
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: mule ears on December 26, 2017, 07:44:17 AM
Still no details, but it is looking like the FBI is getting no where fast.  NY times (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/25/us/border-patrol-death-mystery.html?emc=edit_th_20171226&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=55651572&_r=0)
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: presidio on December 26, 2017, 10:21:15 AM
Still no details, but it is looking like the FBI is getting no where fast.  NY times (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/25/us/border-patrol-death-mystery.html?emc=edit_th_20171226&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=55651572&_r=0)

Radio transcripts would prove insightful, as would photos of the injuries. It seems there likely was nothing of interest on the radio as that would have been revealed early on to support the favored claim of attack by unknown persons.

Sad to say, it continues to look like green-on-green as no plausible explanation seems forthcoming.

I would expect the "no memory" claim to unravel at some point. Transcripts of interviews with the surviving agent also would be of interest, along  with personnel histories of each. But, that all conveniently will be withheld under the "ongoing investigation" dodge.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: dprather on December 26, 2017, 02:20:45 PM
Still no details, but it is looking like the FBI is getting no where fast.  NY times (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/25/us/border-patrol-death-mystery.html?emc=edit_th_20171226&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=55651572&_r=0)

Radio transcripts would prove insightful, as would photos of the injuries. It seems there likely was nothing of interest on the radio as that would have been revealed early on to support the favored claim of attack by unknown persons.

Sad to say, it continues to look like green-on-green as no plausible explanation seems forthcoming.

I would expect the "no memory" claim to unravel at some point. Transcripts of interviews with the surviving agent also would be of interest, along  with personnel histories of each. But, that all conveniently will be withheld under the "ongoing investigation" dodge.

I thoroughly dislike the level of cynicism I possess toward our present system (establishment government + establishment media), but it is what it is.

 The "no plausible explanations forthcoming" silence also suggests the possibility of something/anything else they do not want us to know. 

II do not engage in a lot of conspiracy theorizing about the whats, but I do not trust their silence,
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: presidio on December 26, 2017, 07:10:10 PM
The "no plausible explanations forthcoming" silence also suggests the possibility of something/anything else they do not want us to know. 

II do not engage in a lot of conspiracy theorizing about the whats, but I do not trust their silence,

Indeed.

I do not engage in conspiracy theories, but agencies and companies are well-known to close ranks around things they'd rather not admit to in public. Hunkering down trumps honesty and transparency until outside forces intervene. Remember what happened to BP Agent Brian Terry in AZ with the secret Fast and Furious gun running scheme that killed him. DOJ and the administration were as busy as a cat trying to cover sh*t on a tin roof before it blew up in their face.

Do not be surprised if this slowly fades away without resolution and then, one day, we wonder what became of it.

It already is trending that way with other news helpfully displacing this story.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: dprather on December 26, 2017, 07:25:50 PM
The "no plausible explanations forthcoming" silence also suggests the possibility of something/anything else they do not want us to know. 

II do not engage in a lot of conspiracy theorizing about the whats, but I do not trust their silence,

Indeed.

I do not engage in conspiracy theories, but agencies and companies are well-known to close ranks around things they'd rather not admit to in public. Hunkering down trumps honesty and transparency until outside forces intervene. Remember what happened to BP Agent Brian Terry in AZ with the secret Fast and Furious gun running scheme that killed him. DOJ and the administration were as busy as a cat trying to cover sh*t on a tin roof before it blew up in their face.

Do not be surprised if this slowly fades away without resolution and then, one day, we wonder what became of it.

It already is trending that way with other news helpfully displacing this story.

Like a newly pregnant Kardashian
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: presidio on December 26, 2017, 08:36:37 PM
The "no plausible explanations forthcoming" silence also suggests the possibility of something/anything else they do not want us to know. 

II do not engage in a lot of conspiracy theorizing about the whats, but I do not trust their silence,

Indeed.

I do not engage in conspiracy theories, but agencies and companies are well-known to close ranks around things they'd rather not admit to in public. Hunkering down trumps honesty and transparency until outside forces intervene. Remember what happened to BP Agent Brian Terry in AZ with the secret Fast and Furious gun running scheme that killed him. DOJ and the administration were as busy as a cat trying to cover sh*t on a tin roof before it blew up in their face.

Do not be surprised if this slowly fades away without resolution and then, one day, we wonder what became of it.

It already is trending that way with other news helpfully displacing this story.

Like a newly pregnant Kardashian

I could have gone a very long time without that image  :vomit: intruding.

Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: Txlj on December 26, 2017, 11:53:42 PM
A lifetime without

Sent from flat land

Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: Jonathan Sadow on December 31, 2017, 11:11:44 PM
Coach always warned us about playing “grab ass”.

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/e314d3e1-d89c-4d26-a884-bc591442a300#SJbx4iJHv7f.copy

The "no plausible explanations forthcoming" silence also suggests the possibility of something/anything else they do not want us to know. 

II do not engage in a lot of conspiracy theorizing about the whats, but I do not trust their silence,

Indeed.

I do not engage in conspiracy theories, but agencies and companies are well-known to close ranks around things they'd rather not admit to in public. Hunkering down trumps honesty and transparency until outside forces intervene. Remember what happened to BP Agent Brian Terry in AZ with the secret Fast and Furious gun running scheme that killed him. DOJ and the administration were as busy as a cat trying to cover sh*t on a tin roof before it blew up in their face.

Do not be surprised if this slowly fades away without resolution and then, one day, we wonder what became of it.

It already is trending that way with other news helpfully displacing this story.

Like a newly pregnant Kardashian

Fake news - she eats a lot of bagels (https://pagesix.com/2017/12/31/kendall-jenner-slams-pregnancy-rumors-i-just-like-bagels-ok/)....
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: marufo on February 07, 2018, 09:02:55 AM
The autopsy report has been released and is being widely reported, so you can choose the news source of your preference  :icon_wink:

Here is the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/inconclusive-autopsy-deepens-mystery-of-border-patrol-agents-death/2018/02/06/d94c4e16-0ba8-11e8-baf5-e629fc1cd21e_story.html?utm_term=.13908a8f28dc

Quote
El Paso — Medical examiners have concluded their autopsy of a Border Patrol agent whose death renewed President Trump’s calls for a border wall, but the inquiry could not determine if the agent was murdered or could have died accidentally.

The report released Tuesday evening by the El Paso County Medical Examiner’s Office said Border Patrol Agent Rogelio Martinez, 36, died from blunt injuries to the head, but listed the manner of death as “undetermined.” The coroner made no ruling on the cause of Martinez’s death.

Martinez died Nov. 19, hours after he was found badly injured at the bottom of a roadside culvert 12 miles east of Van Horn, Tex. Another agent, Stephen Garland, was also found injured nearby but survived serious head injuries and other trauma, officials said. Investigators have said he was unable to recall details about the night.

The FBI office in El Paso, about 120 miles from Van Horn, is leading the investigation and has classified the case as a possible assault on a federal officer. FBI spokeswoman Jeanette Harper said Tuesday that the investigation was ongoing but declined further comment.

Although President Trump, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott (R) and other political figures have said Martinez and Garland were attacked, investigators have not said that. Culberson County Sheriff Oscar Carrillo, who was among the first law-enforcement agents to reach Martinez, told The Washington Post the agent’s injuries were consistent with a fall.

Van Horn is more than 30 miles from the Mexican border, but Interstate 10 runs through the town, making it a popular spot for smuggling drugs or undocumented immigrants.

The National Border Patrol Council, the union representing agents, has insisted that Martinez and Garland were attacked, and a spokesman repeated that stance after the release of the autopsy report Tuesday night.

“We believe he was murdered,” union spokesman Chris Cabrera said. “There’s no way he was hit by a vehicle. There’s no way he fell.”

The autopsy report said Martinez suffered a fractured skull and acute traumatic brain injury. He also had a broken right clavicle and several broken ribs, among other injuries.

Toxicology tests found the barbiturate butalbital in Martinez’s system. The drug is commonly prescribed in combination with acetaminophen and caffeine to treat headaches and other pain.

And for the skeptical/conspiracy-minded, there's this: http://www.elpasoproud.com/news/border-patrol-agents-fiance-speaks-after-autopsy-released/956170989

Quote
EL PASO, TEXAS (KTSM) -

Three months after 36-year-old Border Patrol Agent Rogelio Martinez's death, his autopsy report has been released by the El Paso County Medical Examiner. His fiancée Angie Ochoa tells KTSM she believes the report is a cover-up.

As KTSM reported, Martinez died hours after he was found injured in a desert culvert outside of Van Horn, Texas on Nov. 18, 2017. His partner Stephen Garland was found unconscious and reportedly told the FBI he had no recollection of what had happened.

"I've been holding myself, but I'm going to say it, I don't feel like they've been investigating the other agent the way they've been investigating me," Ochoa told KTSM in an exclusive interview.

The medical examiner determined blunt force trauma to the head caused Agent Martinez's death, but the report does not say how those injuries were inflicted. The medical examiner did find a sedative in his blood, Butalbital, commonly prescribed for pain and headaches.

"They found Butalbital in his system and when the FBI questioned me about it, I made it very clear to them that Roger would not even take Ibuprofen or Aspirin. You couldn't make him take anything," said Ochoa.

Agent Martinez's fiancée says she has been speaking with federal agents on the death investigation and tells KTSM investigators are focusing on the medication in Martinez's blood and not in finding his killers.

"I just feel like the FBI isn't doing what they're supposed to be doing and it just makes us feel like this is it," said Ochoa. She also said she believes the FBI is investigating the wrong person.

Ochoa said she will continue to search for answers to her fiancé’s death.

There is still a combined $70,000 reward through Texas Crime Stoppers and the FBI for information leading to the arrest of the person or people responsible for Agent Martinez's murder.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: dprather on February 07, 2018, 10:15:50 AM
This remains as an enigma
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: nuggetf5 on February 07, 2018, 12:00:33 PM
The autopsy report has been released and is being widely reported, so you can choose the news source of your preference  :icon_wink:

I read it.

Sad part of this man's death is that his legacy will be to have served the political needs of those that choose to use his passing as such.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: marufo on February 07, 2018, 10:09:17 PM
I can't find a link to the actual FBI report, but it is quoted here (my boldface): https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-no-evidence-of-homicide-in-border-agents-death-cited-by-trump/2018/02/07/b3368e9a-0c5b-11e8-8b0d-891602206fb7_story.html?utm_term=.24411238c05c.

Quote
“To date, this investigation has not conclusively determined how Agent Martinez and his partner ended up at the bottom of the culvert and no suspects have been linked to this incident,” the report said.

“None of the more than 650 interviews completed, locations searched, or evidence collected and analyzed have produced evidence that would support the existence of a scuffle, altercation, or attack on November 18, 2017,” the report added.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: dprather on February 08, 2018, 12:48:27 AM
I can't find a link to the actual FBI report, but it is quoted here (my boldface): https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-no-evidence-of-homicide-in-border-agents-death-cited-by-trump/2018/02/07/b3368e9a-0c5b-11e8-8b0d-891602206fb7_story.html?utm_term=.24411238c05c.

Quote
“To date, this investigation has not conclusively determined how Agent Martinez and his partner ended up at the bottom of the culvert and no suspects have been linked to this incident,” the report said.

“None of the more than 650 interviews completed, locations searched, or evidence collected and analyzed have produced evidence that would support the existence of a scuffle, altercation, or attack on November 18, 2017,” the report added.

I guess they are still alive then
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: Shocky1352 on February 08, 2018, 03:49:57 AM
This entire post, especially the title, is fraught with " my cousin's girlfriend says her best friend told her she heard from her neighbor" baloney.

Can't believe the title is still allowed to dangle out there, being an obvious falsehood.


Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: dprather on February 08, 2018, 11:54:45 AM
This entire post, especially the title, is fraught with " my cousin's girlfriend says her best friend told her she heard from her neighbor" baloney.

Can't believe the title is still allowed to dangle out there, being an obvious falsehood.

I sincerely regret your on-going expressions of concern about this thread and its title.  When the story first broke, my op title was consistent with then-headlines, which, as it has turned out,  were sensationalized and not particularly accurate.  My op sought more, and better, information than was leaking slowly out in the press, and sought that information from BBC contributors who are (i) sober-minded and trustworthy, and (ii) better connected with Bend law enforcement.   

As more of the (still-limited, contradictory, and confused) information has dribbled out, much of this thread has shifted to frustration with a story that has all the marks of an investigation that might be a cover-up.  This frustration reflects the consensus among some of us that the feds and some law enforcement are not necessarily effective at solving crimes or other problems, but are effective at blowing smoke - call this consensus "Contrarian." 

Reviewing contributions to this thread, I read nothing but sincere concern for the deceased and injured, and sincere frustration with an investigation that is, at best, clumsy, or is, at least, being clumsily presented by the feds, now at a national level.   

Frankly, this sad story of death and injury, shrouded in mystery, has been followed in this thread better (links, and etc.) than any other information source of which I am aware.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: Txlj on February 08, 2018, 01:51:44 PM
dprather, agreed.

Sent from flat land

Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: presidio on February 11, 2018, 11:17:55 AM
I can't find a link to the actual FBI report, but it is quoted here (my boldface): https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-no-evidence-of-homicide-in-border-agents-death-cited-by-trump/2018/02/07/b3368e9a-0c5b-11e8-8b0d-891602206fb7_story.html?utm_term=.24411238c05c.

Quote
“To date, this investigation has not conclusively determined how Agent Martinez and his partner ended up at the bottom of the culvert and no suspects have been linked to this incident,” the report said.

“None of the more than 650 interviews completed, locations searched, or evidence collected and analyzed have produced evidence that would support the existence of a scuffle, altercation, or attack on November 18, 2017,” the report added.

From the same WAPO article are these tidbits:

Quote
Another agent, Stephen Garland, was also found injured nearby with serious head injuries and other trauma. Investigators have said he cannot recall details about what happened.

But the FBI findings include previously undisclosed details about the moments immediately after the agents were injured and Garland radioed for help.

In his distress call, Garland told the dispatcher: “We ran into a culvert,” “I ran into a culvert” or “I think I ran into a culvert,” the report said.

A few details are beginning to dribble out. The full radio transcript would prove interesting. The "can't remember" angle needs more probing.

Quote
Judy Melinek, a San Francisco forensic pathologist who reviewed Martinez’s autopsy report at the request of The Washington Post, said the injuries described in the report were more consistent with an accident or fall than an assault.

Melinek stressed that the report contains limited information, and she didn’t have access to photos, X-rays and other materials available to the El Paso medical examiner who performed the autopsy.

“He doesn’t have injuries on his back and front. He doesn’t have injuries on both sides of his body. They are all on the right side and in line with each other. There are also no defensive injuries on the arms or hands,” she said. “The absence of defensive injuries and a single plane of injury is more consistent with an accident than a homicide.”

Not necessarily. A swift and effective blind-side attack would leave no defensive injuries. So far, the information released does not definitely prove or disprove whether an accident or crime occurred. When you're hit by a rock falling from a cliff, that's an accident. When it's thrown or used with malevolent intent, it's a crime. The outcome is the same but the underlying cause is vastly different. The opinion of a forensic pathologist a thousand miles away from the event, and lacking full access to autopsy materials, is nothing more than speculation/conjecture (regardless of credentials). It says the WAPO couldn't get access to directly knowledgeable people, so they go to a source not even remotely familiar with the incident in order to get quotes they can dangle in front of the masses.

Quote
Chris Cabrera, a spokesman for the National Border Patrol Council, which represents agents, said his union continues to believe that Martinez and Garland were attacked.

“We believe it was an assault on our agents and a murder of one of our agents and an attempted murder of another,” he said.

As I've said before, hopefully it's not a case of workplace violence, but it sure appears everyone is going out of their way to avoid raising that issue, with every theory even mildly (and some wildly) plausible being advanced. But, not that one. Again, the nature of injury to the survivor is important, as is relevant background data, but all that is unrevealed publicly to date.

While "None of the more than 650 interviews completed, locations searched, or evidence collected and analyzed have produced evidence that would support the existence of a scuffle, altercation, or attack..." there is something in all that data that surely is "evidence." A lot of work claiming no useful information is either incompetent or obfuscatory.

Might there be a bit of this going on?

(https://i.imgur.com/UgrJ2Df.jpg)

Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: dprather on February 11, 2018, 12:16:09 PM
I nominate Presidio to be the chairman of the Contrarians
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: presidio on February 11, 2018, 12:33:16 PM
I nominate Presidio to be the chairman of the Contrarians

Allow me to be the first to comment:

 :banghead: :willynilly: :eusa_naughty: :s_laugh: :c002: :a102: :rolling:
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: House Made of Dawn on February 11, 2018, 01:24:30 PM
I assume the location and status of their vehicle at the time of its discovery has been mentioned, but I just can't seem to recall. Anybody remember?
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: dprather on February 11, 2018, 01:34:50 PM
I assume the location and status of their vehicle at the time of its discovery has been mentioned, but I just can't seem to recall. Anybody remember?

It certainly seems that the vehicle's condition would shed light on whether or not a guardrail or culvert was hit.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: presidio on February 11, 2018, 02:11:42 PM
I assume the location and status of their vehicle at the time of its discovery has been mentioned, but I just can't seem to recall. Anybody remember?

It certainly seems that the vehicle's condition would shed light on whether or not a guardrail or culvert was hit.

I don't recall any specific info about that. The one photo in an early news release showed a photo purporting to be the scene (crime scene tape). It was in an arroyo and showed a large box culvert, and an obviously paved road (from below grade, so much of that is inferred). However, the type of culvert shown only is found under major roadways and implied it either was I-10 or a connecting highway very near by.

There's a plethora of unanswered questions: what was the condition of the vehicle and contents; did either have a recording device (and was it working, missing or damaged); where exactly were they parked and found; how were they dispatched and what was said over the radio; activities preceding the event; what pavement markings and road environment conditions were found to corroborate or debunk the traffic accident theory; office/work history; interpersonal relationships; timelines/chronology; detailed nature of injuries to both; etc. ????

A polygraph would be very interesting. It's not proof of anything by itself, but a person with genuine memory loss would be very unlikely to react to specific accusatory questions, while someone merely claiming same almost certainly would score obvious deception levels. It would be a door-opener. But, in this circumstance, a polygraph could not be compelled.

None of this is rocket science and all of it is basic investigative work familiar to anyone watching any police drama series (regardless of how unrealistic and slick it all looks on TV).

We'll probably never get to see the NCIS satellite zoom-in view (with Terminator-style video display) showing us exactly what occurred. Nor is there likely to be a Perry Mason moment where the guilty party (previously unidentified) blurts out from the courtroom public gallery "I did it" and saves the falsely accused at the last minute.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: House Made of Dawn on February 11, 2018, 02:13:33 PM
As best as I can remember, whatever occurred, occurred in the middle of the night. IIRC, the agents were on foot, responding to a signal from a triggered movement sensor and they felt certain the trigger had been human.  One possibility (just a possibility - I have no corroborating evidence) is that the agents were running pell-mell (possibly either chasing or fleeing something or both) in the desert and fell into a steep culvert that they'd failed to see in the dark of night. The injuries might have occurred from a long fall ending in contact with one or more hard objects. 

Edit: Just found this, from the local TV station report: The release also stated that evidence was developed that a Border Patrol dispatcher spoke with the injured partner of Martinez by telephone. During the call, while disoriented and unsure of his location, Martinez' partner stated that he and Martinez were hurt. The partner also made a statement to the effect of, "We ran into a culvert," "I ran into a culvert," or "I think I ran into a culvert." The dispatcher also wrote into a Border Patrol log, "[He] thinks they (both agents) ran into a culvert."

http://www.newswest9.com/story/37453323/el-paso-fbi-releases-findings-regarding-investigation-into-the-death-of-border-patrol-agent

Just floating another possibility.

Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: House Made of Dawn on February 11, 2018, 02:14:51 PM
It would be interesting to check the disposition of the moon and cloud cover that night.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: House Made of Dawn on February 11, 2018, 02:31:35 PM
Moon phase: evening of November 18, 2017.  New moon.  Incident occurred just before midnight.

http://www.moongiant.com/phase/11/18/2017

Edit: Some of you may be better than me at finding historical weather data. The one reliable report I've found so far indicates that clouds moved in over the Van Horn area during the afternoon and evening of November 18.  So.....moonless night with cloudy skies. Pretty dark by 11pm - as long as you're away from city lights reflecting off of the clouds.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: mediopelo on February 11, 2018, 03:24:23 PM
There have been all sorts of conflicting reports in the news, including whether there was radio traffic about sensor readouts or even whether there was any radio traffic at all (one news story says that the alarm came through a phone call from the injured agent to his girlfriend), but it seems to be undisputed fact that the culvert where the two were found was on the frontage road, impossibly far to have been hit by a vehicle on the interstate, and that their weapons and equipment were not taken and their vehicles were undisturbed.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: presidio on February 11, 2018, 07:10:06 PM
There have been all sorts of conflicting reports in the news, including whether there was radio traffic about sensor readouts or even whether there was any radio traffic at all (one news story says that the alarm came through a phone call from the injured agent to his girlfriend), but it seems to be undisputed fact that the culvert where the two were found was on the frontage road, impossibly far to have been hit by a vehicle on the interstate, and that their weapons and equipment were not taken and their vehicles were undisturbed.

Since the facts released to date, and the autopsy, now apparently excludes assault by unknown persons, that leaves two possibilities:

a) an accidental fall into the arroyo (whether chasing someone or not).
b) a green-on-green incident.

An accidental fall by both seems a bit of a stretch. If it was a cloudy, moonless night, it is very unlikely they were running  (or even walking) over rough ground in complete darkness, even if chasing someone. It would be interesting to learn whether anyone searched for or observed fresh tracks of third parties...but there's been no claims of a third party on site other than the self-serving ones by the union and no evidence produced showing there was a third party.

It would be very difficult to navigate across even relatively flat ground without light (stepping/tripping on rocks, running into vegetation, etc.) and it does not seem logical that someone would do that. Yeah, using a light makes you a target, but thrashing around in the dark is very inefficient and a suspect simply isn't going to be located on a moonless night without light.

So, if it isn't an accident....
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: House Made of Dawn on April 03, 2018, 09:19:24 AM
The local sheriff's take on this.......

https://www.npr.org/2018/04/02/598872658/a-border-patrol-agent-dies-mysteriously-the-sheriff-has-a-simple-theory
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: mule ears on April 03, 2018, 11:22:06 AM
Very interesting and along the lines of other things I have read.  But you know we have to be sensational in this country even if it is not true.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: presidio on April 03, 2018, 12:26:47 PM
Very interesting and along the lines of other things I have read.  But you know we have to be sensational in this country even if it is not true.

Any theories suggesting an inability to see in the dark are suspect. Nobody in law enforcement operates without light or night vision while moving about at night in poorly or unlit areas.

There is no doubt whatsoever the agents knew there was a culvert there...it's their job to know those things and it wasn't their first rodeo.

Resistance to fact, or the lack thereof, is not something you should expect from an organization that only can operate on fact/evidence. Clearly, there is another agenda strongly at work here.

I still want to know the extent of injury to both agents. Also, as noted earlier, a polygraph (while not conclusive nor admissable) would be very interesting regarding the claim of "no recollection."
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: Talusman on April 03, 2018, 01:17:09 PM
Occam's Razor. There was a little in house Code Red going on here, or just a problem between those two.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: House Made of Dawn on April 03, 2018, 01:50:57 PM
Occam's Razor. There was a little in house Code Red going on here, or just a problem between those two.

Could work and still fit with most of the sheriff's musings. Agent #1 falls or is pushed over the edge of the unrailed bridge. Grappling, he pulls agent #2 over with him. Agent #1 hits hard on his right side and agent #2 then lands hard on top of him, compounding the injuries to the first.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: presidio on April 03, 2018, 06:25:17 PM
Occam's Razor. There was a little in house Code Red going on here, or just a problem between those two.

That is a strong possibility but no one wants to talk about it for a number of reason.

Chief among them are the stain it puts on the agency for workplace violence (if such is true), and the other is it does not fit the political agenda of either the administration or the agency.

But, facts are stubborn things and eventually the truth will come out (if it's allowed to).
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: rocketman on April 03, 2018, 07:37:43 PM
The local sheriff's take on this.......

https://www.npr.org/2018/04/02/598872658/a-border-patrol-agent-dies-mysteriously-the-sheriff-has-a-simple-theory

I understand the tendency to theorize against government employees committing malfeasance. They deserve every bit of it. The article itself gets political simply to raise the hackles of those predisposed to such opinions. But in the sheriff's interview, there are a few interesting tidbits that point to an accident rather than a crime. He was at the scene before the feds had a chance to clean it up and make up a story.

Quote
On the night of Nov. 18, he was one of the first-responders to a report of a Border Patrol agent down in a culvert — a drainage tunnel that runs under a roadway.
"This is the top of the culvert," Carrillo said, in a recent return visit to the site of the agent's death. "Agent Martinez was right there at the base, in the face-up position. And as you can see, it's pretty high."
The drop is about 10 feet onto hard ground.
The sheriff surmises that Agent Rogelio Martinez and his partner parked on the far side of the interstate to check something out, they ran across the freeway, and right off the top of the culvert.

"They just didn't see the drop-off," he said, pointing to the top of the cement tunnel. "You see, no guard railing, no reflectors, it's a dark night."

This leads me to believe that perhaps they didn't have their flashlights blazing, that perhaps they were attempting to use the element of surprise (as they are likely trained to do) under circumstances where stealth is necessary.

Quote
The agents' union remains convinced it was murder. A union official, not authorized to speak publicly on the matter, noted the agents were hurt while investigating possible smuggling activity in the culvert.
"They both know there's a culvert there, and they both fell off? It doesn't make sense," said the union rep.

In the end, its just a theory. I hope we learn the truth some day, but I doubt the official record will resemble it. There are still many unknowns, like the presence of painkillers and the mechanics of how it all went down. Green-on-green is still a possibility with the grappling theory, but I think they just walked/ran off the culvert with no flashlights. Which begs the question, what was the location and condition of those flashlights?  :eusa_think:

Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: dprather on April 05, 2018, 10:07:44 AM
Another thread that never dies...

I appreciate the on-going up-dating...
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: presidio on April 05, 2018, 11:15:07 AM
Another thread that never dies...

Yep, and the ongoing lack of real information only fuels endless speculation.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: rocketman on April 05, 2018, 10:13:59 PM
Another thread that never dies...

I appreciate the on-going up-dating...
Another thread that never dies...

Yep, and the ongoing lack of real information only fuels endless speculation.

I see that logical, opposing views are not necessarily welcomed here. You can always request that the thread be closed due to new information.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: dprather on April 05, 2018, 10:43:00 PM
Another thread that never dies...

I appreciate the on-going up-dating...
Another thread that never dies...

Yep, and the ongoing lack of real information only fuels endless speculation.

I see that logical, opposing views are not necessarily welcomed here. You can always request that the thread be closed due to new information.

Yo, Rocketman.  Your tone suggests that you might have misread my intention.  I did not mean what you took me to mean.  In any event, I apologize.  I continue to enjoy this thread and all additions to it, including yours.

I started this thread with a question (based on sensational early reporting).  The thread had taken added life, I believe, because of the curious absence of timely explanations.  As this absence of closure from the powers that be continues, I am left to wonder if (i) "They" know, but don't want us to know, or if (ii) "They" don't know, and don't want us to know that they don't know.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: presidio on April 06, 2018, 11:37:42 AM
I see that logical, opposing views are not necessarily welcomed here. You can always request that the thread be closed due to new information.

Quite the contrary.

There are many opposing views expressed on this board, and considerable opinion and debate.

Serious discord, as in ad hominem attacks, are extremely rare and refreshingly absent considering the size and activity level of this board. Equally importantly, I am not aware there ever has been an example of Godwin's Law (which occurs on other public forums) seen here.

Some of that is prevented by moderators, but it more is the result of respectful dialogue and interaction, regardless of agreement (or otherwise) between commenters.

Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: rocketman on April 06, 2018, 06:02:01 PM
Apology accepted DP, and I will go with (ii). I also agree that this forum is among the most civilized on the interwebz. I know you have posted your thoughts on the BP officers' use of flashlights Presidio, and your reply was mostly correct and accurate. I was totally speculating, just like the rest of us. However, the interview with a first responder LEO seems like it should be fairly true and factual, so I simply posted my opinion based on new and plausible information. I guess I was hoping for some dialogue regarding my flashlight theory. Instead it seemed like I was simply dismissed like another idiot asking about how much water to bring on the Window Trail.

Peace fellas.
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: Casa Grande on April 06, 2018, 08:16:41 PM



I see that logical, opposing views are not necessarily welcomed here. You can always request that the thread be closed due to new information.


Whoa there fella.   I'm not sure where you got that idea from but this very thread proves that wrong.

I have some pretty strong political views as those who know me understand,  but many of those fine folks on the opposing side of my politics can be found here and I happen to think very highly of them. 

I take great pride in knowing the first amendment is alive and well here my friends.   Say what you want,  just try real hard to be respectful. 

Just know, your right to speak does not forfeit anyone else's right to reply in kind.

sent from my Note 8 using the Big Bend Chat mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=88143)

Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: dprather on April 06, 2018, 08:27:09 PM

Just try real hard to be respectful. 


Not hard at all when we realize that the primary function of BBC is to enhance and facilitate enjoyment of our beloved Bend. 
Title: Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
Post by: presidio on April 07, 2018, 12:10:32 AM
I was totally speculating, just like the rest of us. However, the interview with a first responder LEO seems like it should be fairly true and factual, so I simply posted my opinion based on new and plausible information. I guess I was hoping for some dialogue regarding my flashlight theory. Instead it seemed like I was simply dismissed like another idiot asking about how much water to bring on the Window Trail.

From my perspective, the reason you did not immediately get feedback is that your observations were similar to prior comments. But, since you were expecting dialogue, let's do some.

From your earlier post:

Quote
This leads me to believe that perhaps they didn't have their flashlights blazing, that perhaps they were attempting to use the element of surprise (as they are likely trained to do) under circumstances where stealth is necessary.

As I have opined earlier, I just don't see them not using light. It's difficult to navigate without some ability to see plus, since they were on or immediately adjacent to the interstate, their presence there was not a secret as they (and especially their vehicle) would be illuminated by passing traffic. Additionally, if the BP is going to catch someone, irrespective of what the suspects may be doing, they have to be able to move faster in order to catch up. You cannot overtake someone in the dark by moving at the same pace. Moving faster simply cannot be done without light and it's dangerous to do alone (day or night). When tracking someone, the tracker must be focused on the trail and they give up valuable time if they have to also look about to ensure their own safety. That problem is solved by having one or more other agents who do the "protective" observation while the tracker tracks.

Quote
Quote
The agents' union remains convinced it was murder. A union official, not authorized to speak publicly on the matter, noted the agents were hurt while investigating possible smuggling activity in the culvert.
    "They both know there's a culvert there, and they both fell off? It doesn't make sense," said the union rep.

I would agree with the union rep that the agents (all of them) know about things like culverts since they are known transiting routes. They didn't forget and stumble. It is a core requirement of their job to KNOW these things.

I also agree in principal that it probably was a homicide, but not for the reason the union desperately wants to believe. Among the very few pieces of usable information leaking out about this incident is the seemingly reliable reports of there being no evidence of the presence of anyone at the site other than the agents. If it's not an accident, as the union maintains, then it has to be a deliberate act. Following that logic, if there's no evidence of a third party being present, and it's not an accident, then it only can be....

Quote
In the end, its just a theory. I hope we learn the truth some day, but I doubt the official record will resemble it. There are still many unknowns, like the presence of painkillers and the mechanics of how it all went down. Green-on-green is still a possibility with the grappling theory, but I think they just walked/ran off the culvert with no flashlights. Which begs the question, what was the location and condition of those flashlights?

The info on this incident nearly has dried up. The preferred narrative has lost traction due to lack of evidence, so the political agenda cannot be sustained. The agency would be loathe to have green on green proven (but in the end they would not be able to prevent such revelation). Given the stated investigatory effort (several hundred interviews) which has occurred, yet produced zero information (according to reports) it begs the question as to whether incompetence is involved (the FBI has gotten several black eyes recently for sloppy work), cover-up, or the wrong questions are being asked of the wrong people. None of it bodes well for the truth.

I really don't see flashlights being part of the equation (except perhaps as a blunt instrument of assault). A DNA swab would have answered that question, but probably wasn't done.

Likely, the case will fester and quietly be pushed aside until the victim's family files suit and rattles enough cages. While the media no longer functions as the impartial watchdog of the past, asking agencies and individuals some tough questions which they refuse to answer always shines an uncomfortable light on the situation. It just doesn't look good for anyone not to respond or attempt to hide behind lame defenses.