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Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region

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Offline Jonathan Sadow

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Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
« Reply #60 on: December 31, 2017, 11:11:44 PM »
Coach always warned us about playing “grab ass”.

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/e314d3e1-d89c-4d26-a884-bc591442a300#SJbx4iJHv7f.copy

The "no plausible explanations forthcoming" silence also suggests the possibility of something/anything else they do not want us to know. 

II do not engage in a lot of conspiracy theorizing about the whats, but I do not trust their silence,

Indeed.

I do not engage in conspiracy theories, but agencies and companies are well-known to close ranks around things they'd rather not admit to in public. Hunkering down trumps honesty and transparency until outside forces intervene. Remember what happened to BP Agent Brian Terry in AZ with the secret Fast and Furious gun running scheme that killed him. DOJ and the administration were as busy as a cat trying to cover sh*t on a tin roof before it blew up in their face.

Do not be surprised if this slowly fades away without resolution and then, one day, we wonder what became of it.

It already is trending that way with other news helpfully displacing this story.

Like a newly pregnant Kardashian

Fake news - she eats a lot of bagels....

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Offline marufo

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Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2018, 09:02:55 AM »
The autopsy report has been released and is being widely reported, so you can choose the news source of your preference  :icon_wink:

Here is the Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/inconclusive-autopsy-deepens-mystery-of-border-patrol-agents-death/2018/02/06/d94c4e16-0ba8-11e8-baf5-e629fc1cd21e_story.html?utm_term=.13908a8f28dc

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El Paso — Medical examiners have concluded their autopsy of a Border Patrol agent whose death renewed President Trump’s calls for a border wall, but the inquiry could not determine if the agent was murdered or could have died accidentally.

The report released Tuesday evening by the El Paso County Medical Examiner’s Office said Border Patrol Agent Rogelio Martinez, 36, died from blunt injuries to the head, but listed the manner of death as “undetermined.” The coroner made no ruling on the cause of Martinez’s death.

Martinez died Nov. 19, hours after he was found badly injured at the bottom of a roadside culvert 12 miles east of Van Horn, Tex. Another agent, Stephen Garland, was also found injured nearby but survived serious head injuries and other trauma, officials said. Investigators have said he was unable to recall details about the night.

The FBI office in El Paso, about 120 miles from Van Horn, is leading the investigation and has classified the case as a possible assault on a federal officer. FBI spokeswoman Jeanette Harper said Tuesday that the investigation was ongoing but declined further comment.

Although President Trump, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott (R) and other political figures have said Martinez and Garland were attacked, investigators have not said that. Culberson County Sheriff Oscar Carrillo, who was among the first law-enforcement agents to reach Martinez, told The Washington Post the agent’s injuries were consistent with a fall.

Van Horn is more than 30 miles from the Mexican border, but Interstate 10 runs through the town, making it a popular spot for smuggling drugs or undocumented immigrants.

The National Border Patrol Council, the union representing agents, has insisted that Martinez and Garland were attacked, and a spokesman repeated that stance after the release of the autopsy report Tuesday night.

“We believe he was murdered,” union spokesman Chris Cabrera said. “There’s no way he was hit by a vehicle. There’s no way he fell.”

The autopsy report said Martinez suffered a fractured skull and acute traumatic brain injury. He also had a broken right clavicle and several broken ribs, among other injuries.

Toxicology tests found the barbiturate butalbital in Martinez’s system. The drug is commonly prescribed in combination with acetaminophen and caffeine to treat headaches and other pain.

And for the skeptical/conspiracy-minded, there's this: http://www.elpasoproud.com/news/border-patrol-agents-fiance-speaks-after-autopsy-released/956170989

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EL PASO, TEXAS (KTSM) -

Three months after 36-year-old Border Patrol Agent Rogelio Martinez's death, his autopsy report has been released by the El Paso County Medical Examiner. His fiancée Angie Ochoa tells KTSM she believes the report is a cover-up.

As KTSM reported, Martinez died hours after he was found injured in a desert culvert outside of Van Horn, Texas on Nov. 18, 2017. His partner Stephen Garland was found unconscious and reportedly told the FBI he had no recollection of what had happened.

"I've been holding myself, but I'm going to say it, I don't feel like they've been investigating the other agent the way they've been investigating me," Ochoa told KTSM in an exclusive interview.

The medical examiner determined blunt force trauma to the head caused Agent Martinez's death, but the report does not say how those injuries were inflicted. The medical examiner did find a sedative in his blood, Butalbital, commonly prescribed for pain and headaches.

"They found Butalbital in his system and when the FBI questioned me about it, I made it very clear to them that Roger would not even take Ibuprofen or Aspirin. You couldn't make him take anything," said Ochoa.

Agent Martinez's fiancée says she has been speaking with federal agents on the death investigation and tells KTSM investigators are focusing on the medication in Martinez's blood and not in finding his killers.

"I just feel like the FBI isn't doing what they're supposed to be doing and it just makes us feel like this is it," said Ochoa. She also said she believes the FBI is investigating the wrong person.

Ochoa said she will continue to search for answers to her fiancé’s death.

There is still a combined $70,000 reward through Texas Crime Stoppers and the FBI for information leading to the arrest of the person or people responsible for Agent Martinez's murder.

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Offline dprather

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Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2018, 10:15:50 AM »
This remains as an enigma
Leave "quit" at the car.  Embrace the trail as your friend.  Expect to enjoy yourself, and to be amazed.

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Offline nuggetf5

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Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2018, 12:00:33 PM »
The autopsy report has been released and is being widely reported, so you can choose the news source of your preference  :icon_wink:

I read it.

Sad part of this man's death is that his legacy will be to have served the political needs of those that choose to use his passing as such.
Mandolin Cafe
Since 1995

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Offline marufo

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Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2018, 10:09:17 PM »
I can't find a link to the actual FBI report, but it is quoted here (my boldface): https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-no-evidence-of-homicide-in-border-agents-death-cited-by-trump/2018/02/07/b3368e9a-0c5b-11e8-8b0d-891602206fb7_story.html?utm_term=.24411238c05c.

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“To date, this investigation has not conclusively determined how Agent Martinez and his partner ended up at the bottom of the culvert and no suspects have been linked to this incident,” the report said.

“None of the more than 650 interviews completed, locations searched, or evidence collected and analyzed have produced evidence that would support the existence of a scuffle, altercation, or attack on November 18, 2017,” the report added.

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Offline dprather

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Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
« Reply #65 on: February 08, 2018, 12:48:27 AM »
I can't find a link to the actual FBI report, but it is quoted here (my boldface): https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-no-evidence-of-homicide-in-border-agents-death-cited-by-trump/2018/02/07/b3368e9a-0c5b-11e8-8b0d-891602206fb7_story.html?utm_term=.24411238c05c.

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“To date, this investigation has not conclusively determined how Agent Martinez and his partner ended up at the bottom of the culvert and no suspects have been linked to this incident,” the report said.

“None of the more than 650 interviews completed, locations searched, or evidence collected and analyzed have produced evidence that would support the existence of a scuffle, altercation, or attack on November 18, 2017,” the report added.

I guess they are still alive then
Leave "quit" at the car.  Embrace the trail as your friend.  Expect to enjoy yourself, and to be amazed.

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Offline Shocky1352

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Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
« Reply #66 on: February 08, 2018, 03:49:57 AM »
This entire post, especially the title, is fraught with " my cousin's girlfriend says her best friend told her she heard from her neighbor" baloney.

Can't believe the title is still allowed to dangle out there, being an obvious falsehood.



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Offline dprather

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Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
« Reply #67 on: February 08, 2018, 11:54:45 AM »
This entire post, especially the title, is fraught with " my cousin's girlfriend says her best friend told her she heard from her neighbor" baloney.

Can't believe the title is still allowed to dangle out there, being an obvious falsehood.

I sincerely regret your on-going expressions of concern about this thread and its title.  When the story first broke, my op title was consistent with then-headlines, which, as it has turned out,  were sensationalized and not particularly accurate.  My op sought more, and better, information than was leaking slowly out in the press, and sought that information from BBC contributors who are (i) sober-minded and trustworthy, and (ii) better connected with Bend law enforcement.   

As more of the (still-limited, contradictory, and confused) information has dribbled out, much of this thread has shifted to frustration with a story that has all the marks of an investigation that might be a cover-up.  This frustration reflects the consensus among some of us that the feds and some law enforcement are not necessarily effective at solving crimes or other problems, but are effective at blowing smoke - call this consensus "Contrarian." 

Reviewing contributions to this thread, I read nothing but sincere concern for the deceased and injured, and sincere frustration with an investigation that is, at best, clumsy, or is, at least, being clumsily presented by the feds, now at a national level.   

Frankly, this sad story of death and injury, shrouded in mystery, has been followed in this thread better (links, and etc.) than any other information source of which I am aware.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 12:41:36 PM by dprather »
Leave "quit" at the car.  Embrace the trail as your friend.  Expect to enjoy yourself, and to be amazed.

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Offline Txlj

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Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
« Reply #68 on: February 08, 2018, 01:51:44 PM »
dprather, agreed.

Sent from flat land


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Offline presidio

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Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
« Reply #69 on: February 11, 2018, 11:17:55 AM »
I can't find a link to the actual FBI report, but it is quoted here (my boldface): https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fbi-no-evidence-of-homicide-in-border-agents-death-cited-by-trump/2018/02/07/b3368e9a-0c5b-11e8-8b0d-891602206fb7_story.html?utm_term=.24411238c05c.

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“To date, this investigation has not conclusively determined how Agent Martinez and his partner ended up at the bottom of the culvert and no suspects have been linked to this incident,” the report said.

“None of the more than 650 interviews completed, locations searched, or evidence collected and analyzed have produced evidence that would support the existence of a scuffle, altercation, or attack on November 18, 2017,” the report added.

From the same WAPO article are these tidbits:

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Another agent, Stephen Garland, was also found injured nearby with serious head injuries and other trauma. Investigators have said he cannot recall details about what happened.

But the FBI findings include previously undisclosed details about the moments immediately after the agents were injured and Garland radioed for help.

In his distress call, Garland told the dispatcher: “We ran into a culvert,” “I ran into a culvert” or “I think I ran into a culvert,” the report said.

A few details are beginning to dribble out. The full radio transcript would prove interesting. The "can't remember" angle needs more probing.

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Judy Melinek, a San Francisco forensic pathologist who reviewed Martinez’s autopsy report at the request of The Washington Post, said the injuries described in the report were more consistent with an accident or fall than an assault.

Melinek stressed that the report contains limited information, and she didn’t have access to photos, X-rays and other materials available to the El Paso medical examiner who performed the autopsy.

“He doesn’t have injuries on his back and front. He doesn’t have injuries on both sides of his body. They are all on the right side and in line with each other. There are also no defensive injuries on the arms or hands,” she said. “The absence of defensive injuries and a single plane of injury is more consistent with an accident than a homicide.”

Not necessarily. A swift and effective blind-side attack would leave no defensive injuries. So far, the information released does not definitely prove or disprove whether an accident or crime occurred. When you're hit by a rock falling from a cliff, that's an accident. When it's thrown or used with malevolent intent, it's a crime. The outcome is the same but the underlying cause is vastly different. The opinion of a forensic pathologist a thousand miles away from the event, and lacking full access to autopsy materials, is nothing more than speculation/conjecture (regardless of credentials). It says the WAPO couldn't get access to directly knowledgeable people, so they go to a source not even remotely familiar with the incident in order to get quotes they can dangle in front of the masses.

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Chris Cabrera, a spokesman for the National Border Patrol Council, which represents agents, said his union continues to believe that Martinez and Garland were attacked.

“We believe it was an assault on our agents and a murder of one of our agents and an attempted murder of another,” he said.

As I've said before, hopefully it's not a case of workplace violence, but it sure appears everyone is going out of their way to avoid raising that issue, with every theory even mildly (and some wildly) plausible being advanced. But, not that one. Again, the nature of injury to the survivor is important, as is relevant background data, but all that is unrevealed publicly to date.

While "None of the more than 650 interviews completed, locations searched, or evidence collected and analyzed have produced evidence that would support the existence of a scuffle, altercation, or attack..." there is something in all that data that surely is "evidence." A lot of work claiming no useful information is either incompetent or obfuscatory.

Might there be a bit of this going on?



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<  presidio  >
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Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline dprather

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Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
« Reply #70 on: February 11, 2018, 12:16:09 PM »
I nominate Presidio to be the chairman of the Contrarians
Leave "quit" at the car.  Embrace the trail as your friend.  Expect to enjoy yourself, and to be amazed.

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Offline presidio

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Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
« Reply #71 on: February 11, 2018, 12:33:16 PM »
I nominate Presidio to be the chairman of the Contrarians

Allow me to be the first to comment:

 :banghead: :willynilly: :eusa_naughty: :s_laugh: :c002: :a102: :rolling:
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<  presidio  >
_____________
Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

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Offline House Made of Dawn

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Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
« Reply #72 on: February 11, 2018, 01:24:30 PM »
I assume the location and status of their vehicle at the time of its discovery has been mentioned, but I just can't seem to recall. Anybody remember?
"The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts."

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Offline dprather

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Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
« Reply #73 on: February 11, 2018, 01:34:50 PM »
I assume the location and status of their vehicle at the time of its discovery has been mentioned, but I just can't seem to recall. Anybody remember?

It certainly seems that the vehicle's condition would shed light on whether or not a guardrail or culvert was hit.
Leave "quit" at the car.  Embrace the trail as your friend.  Expect to enjoy yourself, and to be amazed.

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Offline presidio

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Re: Border Patrol Gunfight in the Big Bend Region
« Reply #74 on: February 11, 2018, 02:11:42 PM »
I assume the location and status of their vehicle at the time of its discovery has been mentioned, but I just can't seem to recall. Anybody remember?

It certainly seems that the vehicle's condition would shed light on whether or not a guardrail or culvert was hit.

I don't recall any specific info about that. The one photo in an early news release showed a photo purporting to be the scene (crime scene tape). It was in an arroyo and showed a large box culvert, and an obviously paved road (from below grade, so much of that is inferred). However, the type of culvert shown only is found under major roadways and implied it either was I-10 or a connecting highway very near by.

There's a plethora of unanswered questions: what was the condition of the vehicle and contents; did either have a recording device (and was it working, missing or damaged); where exactly were they parked and found; how were they dispatched and what was said over the radio; activities preceding the event; what pavement markings and road environment conditions were found to corroborate or debunk the traffic accident theory; office/work history; interpersonal relationships; timelines/chronology; detailed nature of injuries to both; etc. ????

A polygraph would be very interesting. It's not proof of anything by itself, but a person with genuine memory loss would be very unlikely to react to specific accusatory questions, while someone merely claiming same almost certainly would score obvious deception levels. It would be a door-opener. But, in this circumstance, a polygraph could not be compelled.

None of this is rocket science and all of it is basic investigative work familiar to anyone watching any police drama series (regardless of how unrealistic and slick it all looks on TV).

We'll probably never get to see the NCIS satellite zoom-in view (with Terminator-style video display) showing us exactly what occurred. Nor is there likely to be a Perry Mason moment where the guilty party (previously unidentified) blurts out from the courtroom public gallery "I did it" and saves the falsely accused at the last minute.
_____________
<  presidio  >
_____________
Wendell (Garret Dillahunt): It's a mess, ain't it, sheriff?
Ed Tom Bell (Tommy Lee Jones): If it ain't, it'll do till the mess gets here.
--No Country for Old Men (2007)

 


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